Discussion in 'Special Operations Discussion' started by goon175, Jan 26, 2012.
Interesting, I did not know the things you mentioned in reference to the SEAL Teams.
My opinion means jackshit on whether or not the pendulum is swinging too much one way or the other. I will leave that question to guys with SOF experience.
Posse Commitatus was pretty much thrown out the window when the NDAA 2012 was signed into law.
Not quite. The NDAA allows detainment into military facilities of the individuals that fit the category they laid out, doesn't allow troops to actually go busting in doors in America and grab people. Also hasn't given em permission to start posting federal troops on the streets and rounding people up....yet.
I'm a history major and I seem to recall at least one famous incident involving federal troops entering a city to restore law....hmmm what was that? Oh right, the draft riots of NYC in 1863. Just one SMALL example of why PS is a good idea. It's not the most infamous example but the first of many that comes to mind. There was a REASON why Roman troops were not allowed within the city walls of Rome itself after the end of Caesar's rule, crossing the Rubicon anyone?
Fuck Army Times! I did a dog an pony show years ago with the first gen SAW and it sucked! So this Colonel walks up while I'm clearing my bagillionth feed jam and says to the AT guy, "you will strike that from your notes" and then looks at me and says "soldier, you will use what you are issued and make it work, is that clear" Yessir!
May want to research JTF-LA, JTF-Detroit, and "The Little Rock 9". AD Army has a recent history of working on American streets.
Ultimately, the Guard deployed 10,465 troops that were subsumed by Joint Task Force-Los Angeles Headquarters. JTF-LA was put together by the Regular Army's U.S. Forces Command in Atlanta which assigned 2,023 troops from the 7th Infantry Division and 1,508 Marines from Camp Pendleton.
At the same time, the Michigan National Guard was federalized and placed under command of the U.S. Army's XVIII Airborne Corps from Fort Bragg, N.C. One brigade each from the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions were flown to Selfridge Air National Guard Base and joined Task Force Detroit under the command of Lt. Gen. John Throckmorton. A total of 10,253 Michigan ARNG federally mobilized from 23 July - 2 August 1967; authorized by EO 11364 of 24 July 1967.
When Faubus did not restore order, President Eisenhower dispatched 101st Airborne Division paratroopers to Little Rock and put the Arkansas National Guard under federal command. By 3 a.m., soldiers surrounded the school, bayonets fixed.
Regarding the thread, there are too many "special" soldiers in USASOC. If everyone is special then nobody is special. Wasn't an Airborne soldier considered at one time a tough school and a gut check? I assure you that is NOT the case now and it no longer is considered an elite school.
In the LA riots and the others mentioned, incidents like that there is a bit of a fuzzy line in regards to that and PC, but PC states troops can be used in that sort of a scenario if it fits within the provisions of the act (extreme civil unrest) and at the express order of the president. Not to mention the governor is usually the one to ask for this if he feels the NG troops under his command cannot handle the situation without help.
Plus we all know the 1960's and 70's were times in which there was massive social and political upheaval, and sadly little things like the law could be trampled on in times like that. PC tends to be something that prevents a police state not the suppression of mass rioting by the people.
Could you cite your sources?
MARSOC is actualy one of the only major SOF units that you cannot go into straight off the street right now. So, I don't think they quite fit into that category.
At risk of totally derailing this thread...
Uh...did you happen to travel anywhere in CONUS shortly after 9/11? Those Guard guys who were...guarding...airports, train stations, etc were on Title 10 orders and were not under control of their respective governors. They were AD USMIL.
Coasties zipping up the Potomac on a RHIB with mounted 240B's? Sure they're not subject to the PC Act but law enforcement with a crew served weapon? ANG fighters flying CAP over significant events in CONUS? Law enforcement? A SOF DA raid OCONUS but the target is brought back to GITMO for trial...law enforcement? Very gray indeed.
Good thing the days of massive social and political upheaval are behind us. Or are they?
Erosion of the Act
While the act appears to prohibit active participation in law enforcement by the military, the reality in application has become quite different. The act is a statutory creation, not a constitutional prohibition. Accordingly, the act can and has been repeatedly circumvented by subsequent legislation. Since 1980, Congress and the president have significantly eroded the prohibitions of the act in order to meet a variety of law enforcement challenges.
One of the most controversial uses of the military during the past 20 years has been to involve the Navy and Air Force in the “war on drugs.” Recognizing the inability of civilian law enforcement agencies to interdict the smuggling of drugs into the United States by air and sea, the Reagan Administration directed the Department of Defense to use naval and air assets to reach out beyond the borders of the United States to preempt drug smuggling. This use of the military in antidrug law enforcement was approved by Congress in 10 U.S.C., sections 371–381. This same legislation permitted the use of military forces in other traditionally civilian areas—immigration control and tariff enforcement.
The use of the military in opposing drug smuggling and illegal immigration was a significant step away from the act’s central tenet that there was no proper role for the military in the direct enforcement of the laws. The legislative history explains that this new policy is consistent with the Posse Comitatus Act, as the military involvement still amounted to an indirect and logistical support of civilian law enforcement and not direct enforcement.
NSW publishes an official magazine called "ETHOS" you can find it here . Then, download issue 12 ( Jan-March 2011) and check pages 14 -17. Its about Language and on page 17 Anchor Teams. All info is OPSEC cleared and in the public domain.
For Anchor Teams, if you google it as SEAL "Anchor Teams" you can find some more info
True, you cant apply off the street, but until the latest change in prereqs, even E-3 could apply and were officialy considered. Now its E-4 with at least 3 years in, (MARSOC official website) and on the other end, which is also important, no more than 10 years if an E-6 and with less than 1.5 years TIG.
This makes for higher age/experience than in the other major SOF, but this is not the experience level that used to be required for SF in years past, before 9/11 and the WOT.
I agree, but what the requirements were in the past for SF have no bearing on the fact that MARSOC isn't a bunch of young recon bubba's running around. Also, an E-3 in the USMC is not the same as an E-3 in the Army. The USMC has E-3 team leaders and E-4 squad leaders at times. I have even seen an E-5 PL.
^True though only for the infantry types because of a broken promotion system. MARSOC recruits outside that. Needless to say anybody applying to MARSOC is on their second enlistment. I'm just wondering when SF will get back to this.
Not really. The NDAA pretty much acknowledged the homeland was a battlefield allowing the use of Federal troops when deemed necessary by the President. That category of individual was also left very vague. It was written in plain English.
Good deal. Thank you.
No objection here - but let me make a more elaborate point so that we understand each other.
Up to now if someone wanted to be a SEAL he had a perception about SEALs, that did not have much to do with teaching and being a diplomat, although FID was always a mission, and regional orientation was part of the teams before the change in how Teams/Platoons deploy.
Are things getting different for a unit taking immense pride in their DA/SR skills? Should they?
Perception of the main mission has been a problem in SF, and is widely acknowledged by members even in this forum. I am talking about the “I speak 5.56 and its enough” mentality.
Now the second but associated point. Consider a young Marine or Army guy who wants something more, but is not much into teaching/ diplomacy or getting very involved with host nation personnel etc.
In the Army side, from what 75th Regiment members say, it’s not really easy to transfer if you are an 11B E-5/E-6 as the Regiment currently likes to “grow its own”. It can be done, but…(has been mentioned in other threads and other forums)
And in the Marine side, the only SOF unit is MARSOC. Recon is another way to go but IF you feel that you want to get to MARSOC at a later point, you have to be very careful with your TIS/TIG.
What I am getting at is that maybe it would be better to have a ladder concept where someone could start from one level of SOF requiring some hard charging attributes and ( if he is capable) be permitted to gradually evolve into another level requiring more experience, maturity, non kinetic things in general.
Using Marines as an example, right now according to official policy, an experienced E-6 with Force Recon experience, in his late twenties/early thirties would probably need a waiver ( I don’t know if there is one- I know there isn’t for reserve E-6s) to get to MARSOC.
This same Marine will get a shot at being a Platoon Chief in FR or Recon as a GySGT and then he will be distancing himself from the operational side altogether, while in MARSOC he could have been a Team Chief, as Master Sergeant, with 17+ years of service behind him.
I am not saying that my view is correct, but would like to know your take on things since some of you have been there and done that.
I guess it comes down to...if you want to do sexy DA stuff in a special operations capacity, then join the branch that alows you to do that.
Remember, not everyone wants to do UW/FID, but some of those guys end up in units whose main mission is UW/FID, due to a misconception of that units purpose.
I will use myself as an example. I wanted to do cool guy DA stuff, I researched every SOF unit and every branch of service, and settled on a goal of wanting to be a Ranger. If guys don't do their own research and as a result don't have the opportunities to do the stuff they want to do, well, then that is on them.
Also remember...units want to maintain relevance...and right now it seems as though the pendelum is swinging in the UW/FID direction, so now I think units are trying to advertise their capability in that arena.
In my personal opinion, and please don't take it as any more than that, I think we run into problems when units try to be good at EVERYTHING and chase after whatever is the "in" thing to be good at at the moment.
This actually works in reverse. A young 18x could grow up doing non-kinetic things and then make the hop to CAG and suddenly be doing nothing, but DA. It is interesting that the Army doesn't really have a place for someone that wants to strictly 'speak 5.56' at a SOF-level unless you started out there. I think that's part of the problem with SF getting some 'meatheads.' It's possible that the 75th will get NCO heavy in the future and possibly fix this. I know it's been talked about by the head honchos over there.
Not trying to derail the thread, but CSM Merrit told us on my last deployment that he wanted the lowest ranking person in the 75th that is a part of the strike force to be a corporal. I guess it didn't happen on his watch, which is dissapointing, he had some really good, progressive ideas on where he wanted Regiment to go while he was RSM.
Just speaking from personal experience but I agree with that statement. From day one in boot camp your told "Marines are killers, Marines destroy their enemies" and all that. We've gone from Fallujah assaults to COIN and trying to win over the population to win against a insurgency. I'm not saying Marines can't do COIN and won't follow orders, they had some excellent examples of doing this well in Vietnam, but that sort of mission rankled me and other infantry types as "not our job, we should be killing shit not hand holding" at the time.
Being older, wiser, and more experienced (and with a lil less piss and vinegar about "kill kill kill") I can see how the mission set has changed and focus has also changed, but at the time you had plenty of that and to this day still have plenty of that. Doesn't help that the average age in the Corps is 19, and young Marines are all about guts, glory, and killing shit COD style lol!