Discussion in '75th Ranger Regiment' started by goon175, Jul 2, 2012.
OppressorsBeware, please an Intro in the correct subforum before posting again.
I have no room to talk on this topic at all, but I would like to point out what Jack Murphy wrote in his article on sofrep.com.
"Something changed with RASP class 5-12. In the class that the Discovery Channel filmed, 20 RASP students failed Land Nav and still graduated. 7 students were caught drinking and still graduated. A student received 90% negative peer reviews and still graduated. Since class 5-12, graduation rates have continued to be abnormally high with upwards to 130 students graduating per class."
"Over a dozen RASP graduates from class 5-12 are already being or have been RFS’ed but it will take years for NCO’s to shovel all of the dead weight out the door."
Read more: http://sofrep.com/9028/why-are-standards-plummeting-in-the-Ranger-assessment-and-selection-program/#ixzz205ml5x3T
My source was the NCOIC of the course at the time of filming. I can't personally speak to the verity of that article, but I'm sure he'll mention something to me about it next time I'm in contact with him. Additionally, as I am no longer at the Regiment, I can't speak intelligently about the 'slipping standards of RASP,' but I have a number of close friends, some at 1st, some at 2nd, some at Benning. All have said they felt the unit is universally improving across the board. I haven't heard any complaints about the quality of the guys they've been getting from the ROC nor have they made any statements that led me to believe the Regiment is on a downturn, especially in this cutback era, where the slightest infraction in the regular Army is getting guys chaptered.
Here's my buddy's response to the article:
"That article really pissed me off. Everyone wants to see 200 start and 20 finish because that makes them feel "Special". Well being a good Ranger is what made me "Special". Having good leaders is what makes us "Special". I am curious to know when the writer graduated rip. Here is the part that the writer failed to mention. First, so called PFC A graduated from RIP meaning that RIP was not in any way developing great Rangers. Second, the RFS numbers speak for themselves. A high percentage of all RIP graduates were RFS'ed within two years for one reason or the other. There has only been a handful of RFS's that RASP has produced. By the way RASP has been around for nearly two years now. Thirdly, this whole article reeks of "I was in the last hard RIP class." The writer does not understand the big picture. The big picture is not about numbers. It is about having the right person in the right spot. Pre-RASP is an awesome program and it does a lot more than raise the graduating rate by 10% (on the high end). Here is another part that the writer failed to include: how many people quit Pre-RASP on a daily basis. I can't even count how many times I would call Pre-RASP and ask them about how many guys is RASP picking up for the next class and they would say, "X number just quit today and 17 out the 40 airborne students we picked up today quit."
I think there's a great deal of truth here. People get wrapped up in the numbers all in the name of perception. Just because they're not eliminating 90 percent in the course like when we went through doesn't mean that the Regiment isn't elite anymore or that a superior product isn't being produced by the school house. The critical end state should be that the Regiment receives the best young soldiers possible that will be molded into outstanding leaders, and continue to take the fight to our enemies doorsteps, not how warm and fuzzy we former Rangers feel to have been a part of a club that's more exclusive than all the other clubs. What good does it do the Regiment to send 10 dudes to a battalion out of which 6 will get RFS'd within a year? Why not just take 20 guys that will be successful, guys that will definitely be assets to the unit? Seems to be a more sensible strategy to me. I imagine if you take all the Basic, Airborne, and Pre-RASP dropouts, then the numbers will still levitate around 90 percent attrition.
Like I said I can't comment on any of this, just trying to point out a former Rangers point of view on the situation. I'm sure Jack would respond if your friend emailed him or commented on sofrep.com. Would make for a good conversation I bet.
can you ask him what the final numbers were? Pre RASP starters, RASP candidates, and then finally Ranger graduates.
Interesting comments but I think some of them are out of context and/or based on a failure to understand what I wrote. For instance, I pointed out that the standards were lowered previously with RIP and it led to poor performers filling the ranks in the Ranger Regiment and I give an example of what that looks like and why it is dangerous. My point was that we have previous experience with lowering standards and should learn from it. It wasn't right for RIP and it isn't right for RASP. In no shape or form was I placing RIP up on a pedestal and tearing down RASP. Everyone I talk to thinks that RASP is a much better program than RIP and I agree.
You can point out to your friend that I graduated RIP on June 20th, 2003. Questioning people's professional credentials because you disagree with them is a really cheap rhetoric technique.
My information is that pre-RASP consists of PT, some admin, and that the Soldiers are released by lunch in most cases. Is this information incorrect? Are they given formal blocks of instruction that give them a leg up during RASP, such as Land Navigation and medical training? From what I understand, Pre-RASP does not sound that different than RIP hold. I understand that a lot of people quit pre-RASP just as they would quit in RIP hold. You could factor this into over all attrition rates I suppose but I don't see how it makes a difference here.
As far as the numbers game, I've seen it all before. There are tons of excuses used to get those graduation numbers up. One of the ones I saw was in the Q-Course where they introduced the "whole man" concept. The idea was that the whole man is evaluated throughout the duration of the course. No single event is pass/fail in this instance. In other words, this is a Power Point commando manner of saying that there are no real standards and that you can fail any event and still graduate. It sounds like this is what is happening to RASP. Does the NCOIC have any comment about the students who failed Land Navigation but still graduated? Is it now like Basic Training and the idea is that they will just learn it when they get to their unit? What about the dude who got 90% peers and graduated?
I respect the opinions of others, but this one clashes greatly with what I've been told.
Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? You throw out a disclaimer and then speak from a position of authority based on something you read? All of this with zero time in uniform?
AND the author of the article you are quoting is a member here?
Stop now while you are ahead.
Watched the show and found myself actually getting pissed at the lack of maturity and CF that ensued when things devolved to mob rule. I'm old and cranky though.
I watched the show and I see that the ALICE ruck is making a come back along with the L shaped flash light. Interesting that parts of SFAS Team week is in RSAP or some of the events were team events that I did in Team Week were in RSAP. I definately liked the intro to mechanical, thermal, ballistic, and explosive breaching and the final event of the breaching exam. Obviously the BTI doors don't acurately reflect what really happens when you do live breaching with ballistic and explosives. (yes, I'm a Master Breacher).
Yeah, the 75th has never abandoned the alice pack, we never got issued the new army one b/c they suck.
They get a good intro to breaching, shooting, driving, medical etc., enough of a foundation to build on when they get to their batt. Usually guys will go to master breacher once they are senior e-4's or e-5's.
Whey did they start using Shields? I wonder which LEA had influence on that.
its only a safety precaution in rasp, they don't do that in batt.
Ok, just got off the phone with someone currently in pre-rasp. He said that they attended the last graduation, and they graduated 112 out of 163. He also said their basic pre-rasp daily schedule is formation at 0545, PT, breakfast, some days admin, some days they get some classes (7-8 type stuff), and then usually released shortly after lunch. He said that he thinks they just recently started giving classes because all the recycles waiting for the next class said they didn't get these classes. He said it basically happens whenever their are spare cadre, and they only get maybe a couple classes per week. As far as attrition in pre-rasp, he said they lose about 2-3 people per week, but they are coming up on a block leave period, and a bunch of the guys he is with are planning on quitting after they get back from that (they don't want to go world wide and not get the leave time). He said they still do the RSAE (swim eval) in RASP, but it is no longer a go/no go event where as it used to be the source of some attrition. He said 1/3 of the guys in pre-rasp right now cant pass the 5 mile standard run, and alot of the guys can barely meet big army minimums on the PT test, which is the pre-req to start RASP.
You should speak to my friend directly. If you PM me I can give you his information if you're interested. That said, he was directly involved at RASP for several years. If he saw discrepancies with the program I feel that he and my other friends who have served as cadre at the ROC would have made this known to me. I have heard rumblings of discontent with the manner RIP was conducted in previous years, but not since the inception of RASP. Have you been involved as a cadre member in any capacity? Have you born witness to dwindling standards in the Regiment as a current SOF guy, or are you reacting to numbers and the way Discovery handled the material? Do you have any first hand knowledge of how RASP is being run or are you keying off of secondary accounts? Clearly, I am biased in favor of my buddy as I know him personally and trust his judgement implicitly, and while your vetted SOF status carries weight, I simply do not know you, no offense intended. I think it may be in everyone's benefit if you talked to my friend. Perhaps something could be learned from one another. Otherwise, best wishes.
Just for a bit more dimension on the issue, the RASP class Dick Couch followed in 2010 in his book "Sua Sponte" started with 160 and graduated 39, more in keeping with the rates most of us RIP-ies remember, dudes quitting left and right at Cole Range, people falling out of the 12 miler like flies to the swatter. Haven't digested the differences nor finished the book, but it's an angle worth addressing. Perhaps someone smarter than me can bring the salient points to light and quantifiably assert that the Regiment is on the decline. I just haven't seen it.
I think Dick Couch's book displayed the best that the RASP program can offer. If every class was run like that, I think every TL and SL in Regiment would be very pleased and RFS rates would all but evaporate..maybe a DUI that gets a guy booted here and there, but some of the other stuff all of us in Regiment have seen would all but cease.
I think we can all agree that RASP is much better than RIP in every facet. It's just in the way that it is implemented that is causing the controversy.
Also, I don't see how the RSAE can be a non-graded event when the Ranger Creed says we can arrive by "land, sea, or air"
Indeed, the name is less important than the method. I bore witness to a sea of sub standard Rangers at one point in my time there. It was a strange era where leaders were prohibited from utilizing the tried and true disciplinary methods that had served so effectively in the past but were expected to enforce the standards for a less mature, less competent crowd of new guys than I had seen in my five years there. The issue was addressed, but some damage was done. I left shortly before RASP was conceived.
I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with your friend, however if he wants to write a rebuttal I will be happy to publish that as well and let the other side of the story be told. Readers can make up their own mind. I personally saw standards slip during my time in the 75th and in Group. The article I wrote is based on those experiences as background, the additional information about RASP is sourced from those close to the situations involved. My reaction has essentially nothing to do with how the Discovery Channel handled the material but rather what NCO's in the Regiment and recent RASP graduates have to say about it, including the class depicted in the documentary.