Discussion in 'Special Operations Discussion' started by SgtUSMC8541, May 12, 2009.
Yeah, but you're sneaky.
SOmething that's garbage, is they can't even follow the scientific method...
They do NOT use the same conditions for each test.
Grenade test is a HUGE example.
Dropping a Russian Grenade in a washer machine, and dropping an American Grenade in an enclosed plexi glass.
Both totally different conditions.
Neither would simulate accurate the grenade blast, and kill factor of throwing it in even a 6X6 room.
Nothing on that show is uniform. You cannot test a 5.56 on a watermelon, and than turn around and use an AK on a cinderblock, two TOTALLY different environments of testing, and two TOTALLY different variables. (examples)
Another case in point directly related to their testing.
Shooting a knife through speed moniters vs hitting a torso like the E-Tool did, are two TOTALLY different things.
WHAT IS THE DAMAGE THE KNIFE WOULD DO TO THE BODY VS THE E-TOOL etc?
Too many variables, nothing uniform, no opinions can be made.
I totally agree with you G-Man. Maybe if they tested the weapons in the exact same manner then it would produce better results. All in all though, it's a fun show to watch.
The shotgun test was rubish, the sniper rifle test was rubish. The computer geek is a stupid tool.
The show is a waste of time.
Bro, you have great points, but the SF guy did miss some targets. I wish they would have sent a guy from one of our shooting schools.
I get what you mean, but at the same time.
They gave the Spatznaz the neurological advantage for the pistol test.
For example, they were both right handed.
The targets for SF were on his left (majority) and Spetznez was on his right.
Stand up straight (at attention) move into shooting posture, (as if you were holding your pistol) Target 1 o clock. target 11 o clock. target 2 o clock, than target 10 o clock.
Something you're going to notice, is because you're right handed, that means your left side of the brain controls the majority of motor functions. (Neurologically)
Therefor, to turn and engage each target. the ones on the right will targetted faster, and more accurately just by neurological reflex, vs the targets on the left. Add zero distance estimation. because of the design of night vision goggles, when they take both eyes into one scope, it kills (can't remember word) your ability to gauge distance [same reason why if you lose an eye, you have to take an eye exam at the DMV every year] . neurologically, by them making the side by side set-up. and changing variables. the Spetznaz had an automatic neurological advantage over the Green Beret. It was automatic. And that's the huge difference that changing a couple of variables can make.
Even when they were comparing AK vs M4. the AK didn't have the objects in front of the targets (ricochet) as the M4 did.
I mean no disrespect at all, or mean anything negative what-so-ever.
But if you've shot something through glass, I'll guarantee you (unless you had some "special bullet" made for shooting through glass.....) that bullet did NOT hit where your cross hairs aimed at. Because the glass fragments, and changes the bullets trajectory.
Spetznaz did not have to shoot through the jars, and bottles as the SF did.
On the same note, If you watch the video again. something you'll notice on every event, even the shotgun event, just focusing on the shotgun event.
Semi-Auto vs Pump Action. I know for a FACT the Army uses the M4 Shotgun, and even know of Quiet Professionals who've even talked of using them. Spetznas had automatic win on it.
THey gauged by accuracy, and amount of rounds put downrange.
Semi-Auto, displayed same accuracy as the Pump Action, only Semi-Auto was able to put more rounds into them, at a faster rate.
Another note, computer program. What program was being used?
I have a computer program on my comp, where I can show you gents (if you were over here) A Roman Legionaire slaughtering tanks, jumping thousands of feet in the air hacking b-17s. charging across the ocean destroying Missile Frigates.
But is that realistic? the "data" I need, is simply turning the attack, range, speed etc to 99999 a piece. and let it loose.
When you watch that show again, look at his computer when he "puts in" the data. It looks like he's running a systems diagnostic, not using a programs calculations. Why?
Because his computer screen goes something like this:
std::cout << my computer's gay\n";
debug: Alt 1 on End
Debug: Center if Yes (y) if no (n)
Debug: Systems Diagnostic (y) (n)
Debug: System reading 1/5235359986 files
Debug: System reading 984/5235359986 files
and so on. It looks like he's running a systems diagnostic if anything.
I've watched that video three times, each time. every variable is changed. Even the ones that look the same, they aren't the same.
If this was a federal program for actually testing something, it'd be a no-go.
Dragon Skin vs Current issue for example.
Same tempratures (114 degrees fareinhiet both vests)
froze both of them
beat them up the same ways,
same type of ammunition
shot them all at the same angles, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Scientific Method is designed so you can do something, and NO MATTER WHAT everytime you repeat it, result will be EXACTLY the same. If someone else repeats what you did, they will have the EXACT same results as you had.
In this show, they didn't do it.
Also another thing.
What was the objective they were grading for?
Ever see the show "Top 10 Rifles" or something ismiliar on the military channel? How they had that grading criteria? Reliability, length of service, etc?
I understand two SOFs aren't like that, but you can STILL come up with grading criteria.
And instead of comparing an E-Tool and a knife, why not compare knife to knife?
K-Bar vs Spetznas knife.
K-bar typically 7'' blade spetzness 10'' blade
Tactical usage: What is the SF trained to do with knife fighting vs the Spetznas?
list goes on
The more I think of that show, and look into it, the more and more they have things way off...
Respectfully, and with no offense to anyone else intended in this post.
No accurate info can be gained from "gaming" like that. It's BS.
I've cross-trained with just about all the top spec ops units. SPETZNAZ has different levels of operators, just like we do in the states. Still, their top guys were not nearly as professionally capable as our Tier-1 operators, period.
The best guys I ran across from other units were actually the Australian SAS and the Norwegian FSK. Those 2 units had guys who were very well-prepared and had the right stuff.
NOBODY is as dialed in as the top 2 U.S. units. Not even close.
Dude, it's just a douchy TV show on Spike.
Made for teenage wannabes and airsofters.
You bring up valid points.
The show is pure comedy gold, not a double blind and peer reviewed study.
Hopefully Terry Schappert will keep doing good things for military subjects on TV to erase any memory of this show.
I agree. My apologies, just whenever I see forums discussion that show, it gets me on a tangent.
I will add, seeing someone with experience (knowingly anyways) in DEVGRU is awesome.
But one thing that's going to arise as a problem about this show, is little kids are going to think Spetznas are more "badass" than anyone else.
Like how the video game SOCOM came out, every kid (including high school) were all whining around how Navy SEALs do things nobody else ever does, or how SOCOM is Navy only, blah blah blah. Than Call of Duty 4 came out, same thing, only about Force Recon, than that show "Life of an Operator in SWAT" or something like that came around, everyone started going on and on how SWAT Operators are a hundred times better trained than military SpecOps, blah blah blah
Already, at the lake earlier today. I left because I didn't care to get into an argument with a little kid. A Middle School Kid started going on how he wanted to be Russian Spetznaz, how he'd kick American "Black Ops butt" :doh: even worse, kiddos around him started getting into it...:doh:
I just got my friends and left before a 19 y/o got in a public argument with an 14 y/o.....
All this show is going to do in the future, is feed the steriotypes.
Now all they need to do, is compare Army vs Marines, and the next generation of High School Graduates are set... Because no one from grade 7-11 are capable of distinguishing entertainment on TV vs actual information...
After they do the Soldier vs Marine, they jsut gotta do Sailor vs Airman,
and than "Pit the winners" against each other... *roll eyes*
I can't imagine the pointless arguments and dribble this show is going to cause with younger generations...
Dude, you are 19 with approximately 0 (zero) days in uniform. Why would you bother to argue with a 14 YO and how do you know what "actual information" looks like?
Hey, let's argue about the best space capsule, Mercury or Gemini. I'm sorry, we can't because neither of us are astronauts.
Discovery is a lot less about factual infos, more about entertainment.
The "Top 10s" show was just so wrong. Not to mention that 'weaponology' thingy.