This man does NOT like Jocko...

Devildoc said:
I don't know this Jay guy, he was interviewing a former SEAL. But if someone can offer evidence of this Jay fella having done sketchy, unethical shit, I'm all ears.

At the end of the day I don't care if someone was a super-elite green seal ranger recon beret, a motor-T, a cannon-cocker, or filed paperwork, if they did sketchy, unethical shit, it should be called out. I hate it when people feel like they deserve a pass for being name-your-special-status.
Click to expand...

I respect operators a lot, and some things are understandable, but personally do not like anyone using their veteran status for profit. Whether you were "special" or not. What I admired most was the "Quiet Professional." But I know that's no longer a thing, and I'm a just a leg, so...
 
Devildoc said:
I don't know this Jay guy, he was interviewing a former SEAL. But if someone can offer evidence of this Jay fella having done sketchy, unethical shit, I'm all ears.

At the end of the day I don't care if someone was a super-elite green seal ranger recon beret, a motor-T, a cannon-cocker, or filed paperwork, if they did sketchy, unethical shit, it should be called out. I hate it when people feel like they deserve a pass for being name-your-special-status.
Click to expand...
No, Jay is using Deming who has a hard on for certain other guys in the "community" to score some clicks and expand his platform. He's just another vet trying to use his "special" status to be a wannabe influencer. Deming wasn't in Ramadi with Jocko, so what's the purpose of this other than to score clicks. Clearly he's got an axe to grind, who knows why. Did he do something in the teams that stopped him from making Master Chief?

If you look at the rest of "Jay's" content, he gets like 2k views per video. Everything with Jocko though is doing numbers, not only is he using Deming, he's using Jocko's name to increase the size of his platform. I've seen this before, rap battles, the street, also on youtube in the bodybuilding community where dudes just click bait each other and say shit about each other's families. Everything about Jay's channel is very 2016 body building from the clickbait titles to the clickbait thumbnails, super cringe.

I don't got a side, but Jocko's kids books are legit.
 
Topkick said:
I respect operators a lot, and some things are understandable, but personally do not like anyone using their veteran status for profit. Whether you were "special" or not. What I admired most was the "Quiet Professional." But I know that's no longer a thing, and I'm a just a leg, so...
Click to expand...

I don't mind people using their vet status for profit, I don't know where the line crosses from legit to over-the-top, but I guess like the supreme court justice said about porn and whether he could define it he replied, paraphrasing, 'I can't define it but I know it when I see it.'

Kyle Dofoor, Shrek McPhee, Pat Mac, Larry Vickers, Ragged Edge Solutions, etc., et al., ad nauseum...the list goes on. I think if one's vet status lends to skill sets which are in demand, who's to say that's unethical? But the kiss-and-tell books? Different story (to me. Mileage may vary).

In THIS particular case, when a community circles the wagon to protect its' own when members have accused of doing sketchy, unethical shit, I have zero issues if they are called out, especially if its by members of their own community. Not doing it just emboldens others to attempt that same behavior.
 
I think this gets back to the post I had in another thread about how a lot of raids were anywhere from worthless to counter productive. And the response to that was that things were very kinetic and people this board called out the author of the study...

ThunderHorse said:
Interesting stuff here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1777861254897344721

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0162243917727353

Pretty sure that's not what COIN was about guys, but glad the dudes who shouldn't be deep inland got to keep whacking dudes.
Click to expand...

But real question, why do you give Eric Deming the benefit of the doubt and not Jacko? Because of things you "heard?"

A lot of things SOF do are not exactly kosher on the regular side. Why they get authorization for that shit is unclear. But whatever.
 
ThunderHorse said:
But real question, why do you give Eric Deming the benefit of the doubt and not Jacko? Because of things you "heard?"

A lot of things SOF do are not exactly kosher on the regular side. Why they get authorization for that shit is unclear. But whatever.
Click to expand...

I don't mind working in the margins or the gray area, but I do mind people doing bad things and covering it under the guise of "I'm special."

But to answer your question, I realize you don't me so I don't deserve the benefit of any doubt for owning any critical thinking skills or ability to do research and verification of sources, maybe the things "I heard" are important to me.
 
The veteran "community" and those within SOF are probably the best at tearing each other down. So, I question Deming's motives for this and his motives for his crusade.

You mentioned calling out people when a "community" has circled its wagons. Maybe Jocko is just a good guy? I don't know. I listen to his podcast from time to time.

Jay the host is just trying to use Deming and Jocko's name to grow his idiot brand.

So yes, I presume influencers are shallow MFers.

In regards to Red Wings specifically, I think by now everyone knows it was a shit operation that got a bunch of guys killed. Yes it made Luttrell famous with his book, but how many holes and broken bones you gonna take before you try and write a best seller. Seems amongst the SEALS you write a book without ever doing anything and you'll get a $1M advance.

Just saying this smells like bodybuilding influencer drama from 2016. Legit right out of the playbook.
 
ThunderHorse said:
I think this gets back to the post I had in another thread about how a lot of raids were anywhere from worthless to counter productive. And the response to that was that things were very kinetic and people this board called out the author of the study...


But real question, why do you give Eric Deming the benefit of the doubt and not Jacko? Because of things you "heard?"

A lot of things SOF do are not exactly kosher on the regular side. Why they get authorization for that shit is unclear. But whatever.
Click to expand...

I just heard a Shawn Ryan episode where he interviewed a former SEAL turned YouTube guy (MrBallen). Ballen (John Allen) was with ST2 and they relieved another team, the number escapes me. His account is that a number of raids conducted by both teams, this would be a year period in Afghanistan around 2012-2013, were raids for the sake of raiding. Patrols for the same of drawing fire to justify gunfights. He also said a lot of those were approved because his leadership was really good at writing CONOPS. I've spoken to Army SF and an EOD Tech assigned to Team 2 in Afghanistan, 2005-ish, where CONOPS were king. If you couldn't write one, your team stayed home.

I tend to believe Deming, but that doesn't mean Jocko can't rebut Deming's assertions. Jocko did just that and the one really sus thing about Deming's story is he cites 36 dead as a result of Jocko's task unit, but there were only 17 dead from that deployment and 5 or 6 of those were before Jocko arrived in country; the dead in this case are 3/8 Marines. Deming not doing his due diligence is a huge flag. Even if he's right about some of the facts, he missed an easily checked stat which undermines his credibility.

That said, the Luttrell story was known to be BS from the beginning. DEVGRU's handling of Chapman both day of and years later during the MOH process is rage inducing. I believe Kyle's abuse of his wife was previously discussed elsewhere.

"Smoke/ fire" and all that stuff. I think both parties be it Jocko/ Deming or SEALs/ Deming have some facts right and some facts wrong. I tend to believe Deming, but recognize his sources need to step forward and end this he said/ he said crap.

I find it really interesting though that Tim Szymanski's name pops up everywhere when there's a scandal or lie or coverup. People focus on Jocko, but what about that guy? He's a retired 3 star and no one is looking into him? Odd.

ETA: spelling
 
Last edited:
AWP said:
His account is that a number of raids conducted by both teams, this would be a year period in Afghanistan around 2012-2013, were raids for the sake of raiding. Patrols for the same of drawing fire to justify gunfights. He also said a lot of those were approved because his leadership was really good at writing CONOPS...
Click to expand...

There was a time when my Company, Battalion, and Group/CJSOTF leadership not only lived and practiced that reality - but if you weren't going out on enough patrols - you'd damn near get a accused of battlefield cowardice...

Wait - you don't have any actionable intelligence to go after "the guy" - well, you'd better get your ass out there and do some "Combat Reconnaissance" and FIND something actionable.
If you can't find "THE" guy, you damn site better go out and find "A" guy...
...and don't you DARE send up a CONOP that uses the words "movement to contact" because we aren't doing that.
...I mean- we totally are - just don't you dare fucking call it that on a CONOP slide.

I had AOB Headquarters elements that were going out numerous times during any given week trying to stir up shit - hell, I've seen more than a couple of field grade officers looking for any excuse to get outside the wire so they could find just enough small arms fire to justify a CIB because they never got one as a Team Leader...
...then you'd never see them off the FOB again - unless it was in a helicopter to fly to another FOB

C'est la vie.

My own AOB went out to stir up shit all the time - because our BC would give my CDR shit about needing to "get in the fight" if we didn't. Not because we were "in the shit" and had to fight back the towlieban on all fronts; because if we didn't, the folks back at BAF would immediately want to know why you weren't out trying to "get in the fight" - Fuck it; lets go - lets just go hit somebody in the fucking solar plexus with a D-Cell Mag Light until they rat out one of their neighbors.

We've all seen the shenanigans unfold - many of us (not me - because I always follow the rules and don't like to ruffle feathers) - may or may not have even been directly and/or indirectly involved in shenanigans - but there are degrees of shenanigans. Some shenanigans are cheeky and fun - expected and encouraged even - other shenanigans are cruel and tragic - maybe even dastardly and deplorable. Which makes them not shenanigans at all...
...evil shenanigans

I would say that there is a world of difference between going on a presence patrol to see if the locals would try to fire PKMs and RPGs at you - and just raiding a suspected area in full on offense mode to start shooting the ones that run...
...or the well disciplined ones that don't run.

I still have the same question floating around in my head - why now?

Why are all of these Ewetoobers suddenly creating content-of-conscience videos and posts and podcasts and tweets and interviews that seems to be looking to hold folks accountable years and years and years after the cessation of organized shenanigans?
Where was the collective integrity of these mother fuckers 5-10-15 years ago when the bodies were still warm?
What difference at this point does it make?

...asking for a friend
 
Last edited:
Box said:
I still have the same question floating around in my head - why now?

Why are all of these Ewetoobers suddenly creating content-of-conscience videos and posts and podcasts and tweets and interviews that seems to be looking to hold folks accountable years and years and years after the cessation of organized shenanigans?
Where was the collective integrity of these mother fuckers 5-10-15 years ago when the bodies were still warm?
What difference at this point does it make?

...asking for a friend
Click to expand...

My SWAG is it is just now because they are out of uniform. What was the incident at SWCS...I think a number of instructors in the Q Course or SFAS tried to push back on the lowering of standards and were nuked from orbit? My memory is fuzzy and you 18 series folks know more than me on the topic.

Wasn't that aircraft carrier skipper fired over pushback during COVID? All of the various harassment cases coming our Fort Hood alone. Rocking the boat even a little is verboten and whistleblowers in uniform are not treated well, as you know.

I suspect a lot of variables are at play, some noble, some for outright personal gain. Who knows? People are weird. The thing is, at the end of the day nothing will happen except a rise or fall in viewership numbers. Let's say all of Deming's stories are true. Jocko won't admit to them and no one will investigate war crimes from almost 2 decades ago; the same goes for Chris Kyle. Unless the ISR video of Luttrell running from the fight is released, nothing changes there. Allegations against DEVGRU in Matt Cole's book? No one will step forward and if they do they are insta-banned/ blacklisted...nothing changes there. Say you retire out of a training command on Tuesday and on Wednesday you start dropping dimes on bad leadership or lowered standards...nothing's changing there.

I hate to quote our girl Hillary, but "what difference does it make?"
 
I agree, you're not going to do anything real time when you are still in. We have All benefited from military culture and I am sure most of us have been victims of military culture. And we know that SOF tends to be clannish in the best of times and that community can be schizophrenic and paranoid at baseline.

I also agree that nothing is going to be done now. Maybe I've seen The Man of La Mancha too many times but I am used to jousting at windmills so I understand the futility of the effort. But that doesn't mean that bad behavior shouldn't be called out.
 
I don't know enough about the situation that started this thread to have a well-informed opinion about it, but from an intel perspective "strike to develop" is a completely legitimate TTP.

If you grab hold of enough low-hanging fruit. sometimes it can lead you to the roots.

Don't have enough intel to get after the people you really want?

Strike. And develop. It worked pretty well in the Task Force.
 
Box said:
There was a time when my Company, Battalion, and Group/CJSOTF leadership not only lived and practiced that reality - but if you weren't going out on enough patrols - you'd damn near get a accused of battlefield cowardice...

Wait - you don't have any actionable intelligence to go after "the guy" - well, you'd better get your ass out there and do some "Combat Reconnaissance" and FIND something actionable.
If you can't find "THE" guy, you damn site better go out and find "A" guy...
...and don't you DARE send up a CONOP that uses the words "movement to contact" because we aren't doing that.
...I mean- we totally are - just don't you dare fucking call it that on a CONOP slide.

I had AOB Headquarters elements that were going out numerous times during any given week trying to stir up shit - hell, I've seen more than a couple of field grade officers looking for any excuse to get outside the wire so they could find just enough small arms fire to justify a CIB because they never got one as a Team Leader...
...then you'd never see them off the FOB again - unless it was in a helicopter to fly to another FOB

C'est la vie.

My own AOB went out to stir up shit all the time - because our BC would give my CDR shit about needing to "get in the fight" if we didn't. Not because we were "in the shit" and had to fight back the towlieban on all fronts; because if we didn't, the folks back at BAF would immediately want to know why you weren't out trying to "get in the fight" - Fuck it; lets go - lets just go hit somebody in the fucking solar plexus with a D-Cell Mag Light until they rat out one of their neighbors.

We've all seen the shenanigans unfold - many of us (not me - because I always follow the rules and don't like to ruffle feathers) - may or may not have even been directly and/or indirectly involved in shenanigans - but there are degrees of shenanigans. Some shenanigans are cheeky and fun - expected and encouraged even - other shenanigans are cruel and tragic - maybe even dastardly and deplorable. Which makes them not shenanigans at all...
...evil shenanigans

I would say that there is a world of difference between going on a presence patrol to see if the locals would try to fire PKMs and RPGs at you - and just raiding a suspected area in full on offense mode to start shooting the ones that run...
...or the well disciplined ones that don't run.

I still have the same question floating around in my head - why now?

Why are all of these Ewetoobers suddenly creating content-of-conscience videos and posts and podcasts and tweets and interviews that seems to be looking to hold folks accountable years and years and years after the cessation of organized shenanigans?
Where was the collective integrity of these mother fuckers 5-10-15 years ago when the bodies were still warm?
What difference at this point does it make?

...asking for a friend
Click to expand...


So...an FNG LT comes out from 2nd CAG one afternoon to spend the night in an ambush site with my Combined Action Platoon. Once we're set up in a tree line along a trail about 2100, SGT Thomas whispers to me--a very salty L/CPL at the time--"take the lieutenant out on a KT, stir up the AO and get him his CAR."

Well...Aye aye, SGT.

Two hours later, the LT is a hard-core combat Marine.
 
Gunz said:
So...an FNG LT comes out from 2nd CAG one afternoon to spend the night in an ambush site with my Combined Action Platoon. Once we're set up in a tree line along a trail about 2100, SGT Thomas whispers to me--a very salty L/CPL at the time--"take the lieutenant out on a KT, stir up the AO and get him his CAR."

Well...Aye aye, SGT.

Two hours later, the LT is a hard-core combat Marine.
Click to expand...
KT = known target?
 

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