Any Orienteering/Land Navigation Training Available in Hawaii?

RFC4824

Verified Military
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Aug 17, 2012
Messages
7
Location
Woodbridge, VA
#1
I am looking for anyone with knowledge of Orienteering/Land Navigation training available in Hawaii.
In depth enough to help someone pass the requirements for EIB/WLC/RIP.

Over the past year my brother has challenged and failed pre-RIP and twice his EIB, failing only on the land navigation. I would like to get him one-on-one training with an outside trainer. He is an exceptional soldier in every other regard, regularly getting 320+ on APFT and has performed with distinction on multiple deployments, but when he tests on land navigation its like he loses his damn mind.

He is heading to WLC in a few months and failing land navigation again, especially at an NCOES school would be very bad for him career wise. Any information about finding someone to provide him training would be appreciated (I am on the east coast or would train him myself).

Thank you.
 

pardus

Verified Military
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
9,894
#2
I am looking for anyone with knowledge of Orienteering/Land Navigation training available in Hawaii.
In depth enough to help someone pass the requirements for EIB/WLC/RIP.

Over the past year my brother has challenged and failed pre-RIP and twice his EIB, failing only on the land navigation. I would like to get him one-on-one training with an outside trainer. He is an exceptional soldier in every other regard, regularly getting 320+ on APFT and has performed with distinction on multiple deployments, but when he tests on land navigation its like he loses his damn mind.

He is heading to WLC in a few months and failing land navigation again, especially at an NCOES school would be very bad for him career wise. Any information about finding someone to provide him training would be appreciated (I am on the east coast or would train him myself).

Thank you.
Are you sure they have land nav at WLC? When I went through last year they weren't doing it, though they said it was coming back. I heard recently that they were stopping land nav again due to budget constraints.

WTF are his CoC doing for him? Land nav isn't hard if it is practiced, sounds like they have set him up for failure, several times.
 

RFC4824

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Woodbridge, VA
#4
I am not sure they are doing land navigation in WLC. I hadn't considered they might not be doing it... I don't know what to say for his CoC. I have had to several times step in and assist him in fixing things that any leader would have taken care of without a question. He was TDY last year near me for training and his unit messed up his return flight. Their solution was to have a SPC pay for his return flight to Hawaii with two days notice out of his own pocket (they put his travel card paperwork in too late for him to receive it prior to the course). I am sure you can imagine how expensive a last minute flight to Hawaii was. Ultimately it was fixed when I called his platoon sergeant and made it clear they needed to stop the lazy bureaucratic crap.

They have put him in for numerous schools so they are investing in their troops. I suspect its less the entire CoC and entirely his squad leader and platoon sergeant.
 
Joined
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#6
He needs to learn terrain association. Once he learns that, land nav becomes as simple as a walk through the woods. It should be easy to do in Hawaii, with all the hills and the giant ocean... However at places like Benning, and Bragg, the terrain is more subtle. However it is still very easy to learn terrain assoc, and once he does, he will be very good.
 

pardus

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#7
???

When did land nav start costing money?
Time = money, land nav was going to be 2 or 3 days IIRC, time in the barracks, chow hall etc... that units are paying for. Besides, we don't need land nav, we have GPS right? :hmm:


They have put him in for numerous schools so they are investing in their troops. I suspect its less the entire CoC and entirely his squad leader and platoon sergeant.
Hmm, If I were a 1st SGT or CO I'd be wanting to know why I'm sending a guy on courses that A, cost the unit money, B, takes a slot away from someone else who might pass, C, he keeps failing for the same reason.
They should be jumping on the PL SGT/SL/TL until your brother is a fucking master navigator.
 

0699

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NoVa
#8
Time = money, land nav was going to be 2 or 3 days IIRC, time in the barracks, chow hall etc... that units are paying for. Besides, we don't need land nav, we have GPS right? :hmm:
Wrong. :D

See, that's why everyone considers you the "smart one". Here I am thinking, "maps, compass, land...".
 

pardus

Verified Military
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#9
Wrong. :D

See, that's why everyone considers you the "smart one". Here I am thinking, "maps, compass, land...".
LOL, if you give me a GPS I would get lost. A map and compass I can use. I just never liked doing declination and resections.
 

RFC4824

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Woodbridge, VA
#11
Terrain association is definitely key and I've pushed him to try and master it, but I think he's created a mental block for himself. He can go out and ruck 20 miles at a 10 minute pace, learn Pashto, and came out top of his class in low-light assault training, but he seems to freeze now when it comes to Land Nav. He hasn't actually cost the unit money in failed training since EIB is a unit operated train-up/testing process and pre-RIP is a qualification course some units use prior to sending their soldiers to Ranger School.
 

x SF med

the Troll
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Not far from the south of Canada, 'Murica!
#12
Ok... I'm just friggin amazed that an Infantryman cannot land nav.... sorry, that's UNSAT... screw a bunch of GPS shit... learn to get from A to B using the basic tools that don't need friggin batteries (except for your damn flashlight at night)... Does he realize that the 'paper' fundamentals are all in a Field Manual?

Here are a few links:
http://www.uvm.edu/~goldbar/FM3_25.26.pdf FM 3-25.26
http://www.armystudyguide.com/conte...n_map_reading/land-navigation-map-readi.shtml
http://www.enlisted.info/field-manuals/fm-21-26-map-reading-and-land-navigation.shtml actually a resource to get to every damn FM/TM/ST out there...

This is a fail on the part of the CoC, and sorry... your brother... for failing to make sure he was ready for the 2nd and 3rd tries at awards and schools and opportunities... He's an Infantry soldier unable to perform a MAJOR TASK in his SQT... and he wants to go to a school/unit and test for an award that require not just knowledge of this task, but excellence in it.... and he wants to become an NCO? Wow, mind blowing to me ... but he can fix it if he puts his mind and energy into it.

It's a sad sad thing, that your brother has not researched this stuff... have him go to his local REI and ask them about the classes they give in Orienteering.... y'know this internets thing is pretty cool.... it helps find answers, or points you in the right direction.

You and your brother both need to do pushups for about 72 hours... and then go beat the snot out of your brother's CoC from Basic until now.

I feel no sorrow for your brother since he did not take the initiative to correct his own deficiencies in training, with all of the resources out there and available to him. I know it sounds callous, but he is attempting to be a Ranger and an NCO... and is showing multiple deficiencies that are required... screw land nav, I'm talking initiative and focus and definition of purpose to be the best damn soldier out there.

I am basing all 0f this on the information and inferences in your posts. Any misinformation or subjective ass pain is based on the information given and evaluated.
 

Diamondback 2/2

Infantry
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Jan 24, 2008
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6,536
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Texas
#13
???

When did land nav start costing money?
When retard instructors failed to teach land navigation correctly, and soldiers kept getting lost, needing to be rescued.

@RFC4824 I would tell him to read the FM and get one of the many squared away NCOs in the 25th Light to help him out. I've never met any infantryman out of the 25th Light that was not a Land Nav/ rucking fool.

$.02
 
Last edited:

Raksasa Kotor

AFSOF
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#15
Schofield has a good land nav course. Probably the easiest way for him to conquer it and gain some confidence back is through the use of attack points. It's just terrain association on a smaller scale.

On your map, plot your point. Still looking at your map, find the nearest blatantly obvious terrain feature to your point - this is your attack point. Walk to your attack point and navigate from there.

For example:

I plot my point, it's 1000m away on a azimuth of 270 through shitty terrain.
According to my map, there is a set of power lines that cross a road 125m from my point.
I can skirt a road/follow a ridgeline (i.e. another easy to follow terrain feature) and avoid some of the shitty terrain to get to that intersection.
Once I get to the power line/road intersection, I only need to follow an azimuth / keep a pace count for 125m instead of 1000m, reducing my margin of error.

The first couple times I did the land nav course at Schofield, I got my ass handed to me by the gulches. Once someone clued me in to using attack points, I never had another problem.
 

8654Maine

Recon Marine
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Over the Rainbow
#16
I'm with Troll on this. Totally unsatisfactory on multiple levels and counts. Fuck that "mental block". Get his head out of his 4th point of contact and learn to soldier.
 

Mac_NZ

Stitch Bitch
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#17
Jesus wept, what the hell kind of JNCO does not teach his guys how to nav.

I've sent an email to an old school Marine I know in Maui, he goes bow hunting a lot so I'll see if he can take your brother up with him and help square his nav away.
 

Ooh-Rah

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#18
Jesus wept, what the hell kind of JNCO does not teach his guys how to nav.

I've sent an email to an old school Marine I know in Maui, he goes bow hunting a lot so I'll see if he can take your brother up with him and help square his nav away.
If this were to go the way it should, I'd pay money to be witness to the ol' Gunny "squaring away" the young soldier.

ETA:
Okay maybe he's not a crusty ol' crabby Gunny...but in my cartoon bubble he is!
 

Mac_NZ

Stitch Bitch
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Messages
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Christchurch
#20
RFC4824, PM sent with some contact details. Your brother will have to get to Maui but the guy is happy to help.
 
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