I don't think RB was trying to bust on you here, more so trying to get some background so that he could offer advice in the proper areas... He is one of those people who forgets more while taking a dump then most of us will ever retain in a life time...
I can say for every service member on this board, that we appreciate any efforts out of your own free time at helping better our training and or equipment! Thank you for taking the time to write your government representatives in regards to these issues...
THAT's what my Dad keeps asking!! :doh:AZG, with your experience at an engineering/RD level, WTF are you doing in a hospital wrestling crack addicts??
AZG, send the link to Sen McCain's website/email??
I agree with training joe to shoot first, however there are minimal things that can be done to the M4 to make it a lot more affective! Why buy an ACOG and Aim Point? Why not have one optic system that had both intergraded, standardizing your training even further? Why replace a barrel with MIL-SPEC when you can put a target barrel with 1/7 twist? Why run M855 when MK262 is more accurate and just as affective?When reports first came out about the stoppages with the M4 carbine I had one question..........."Who and what units where they speaking too when they came up those conclusions?"
I had the same questions, but geared more towards combat arms or combat service and support. The round count and training time as per STRAC allows for more training time and round count for combat arms. (at least on the NG side)
Thus, if your asking a bunch of 19 year PFC's from a conventional ANG unit your likely not going to here much good about the M4 platform. These are the soldiers that cannot tell you what a gas block is, nor the difference between a "buffer" and a "bolt" Not knocking the ANG but if your not asking a Special Forces soldier, a Navy SEAL or other SOF BTDT's then it's likely that your talking to soldiers that have little if any knowledge about lubricating the weapon properly, maintaining a ready full parts kit to replace bolt gas rings, inproved extractor upgrades etc, and they sport crappy mags due also to their lack of maintaining them. It's been my experience with our local Reserve engineer Brigade that they have little if any real knowledge of their weapons systems, espcially the Beretta M9. I mean really, how much sidearm training do the ANG unit soldiers really get ? Not much and then they complain when their M9 go's down. It just so happens that they have an M9 pistol that has never had a new spring kit installed, nor a new barrel and it's at it's service life when issued. Take any pistol and put 30,000 rounds through it and your going to be picking pieces of it on the deck. And, they can't hit their targets with a 9mm Luger, let alone a .45 ACP 1911 clone, which is what most seem to be asking for. Yeah, one thing at a time their cherry bomb.
Depends on the units and what their commanders spend their funds on… I have taught NG soldiers with a result of 40 to 60% increase of accuracy with minimal round counts. I have also taught SOF soldiers who showed a low % increase on the same training concepts. Why? EGO! I have also had “smart” soldiers from both sides walk away with my TSP/ lesson plans and urge to make some changes…
I remember hearing or reading stories about ANG unit soldiers that where convinced that running their M16/M4's completley dry in Afghan and Iraq was a good thing because lubricant attracts the dust and sand. Larry Vickers will tell you all day long that he'd rather have a wet and sandy rifle than a dry and sandy rifle. Makes sense to me, how about you ?
There are 6 rails on the bolt carrier group that require minimal lubrications. Running a M16/ M4 in the sand box with a lot of lube is a disaster waiting to happen; I am sure Larry Vickers was meaning don't run it "bone dry" but I am also sure he will concur that a lot of lube in the sand will ruin your day.
Hell, I learned more about the M16/M4 platform AFTER I got out of the Army than I ever did while IN THE ARMY. :confused: But, that's the BIG ARMY, not the SOF side.
Yep! However the information is readily available in the army and there are plenty of course to take to get up to speed. Big army spends 2 hours every morning on physical fitness training, how much time do they spend every day training soldiers to kill with their rifle???
Do I like the gas piston system ? You betcha, but a well maintained M4 standard gas impingement system should run smoothly for up to 5,000 rounds before needing any parts replacement or real scrubbing. If your having stoppages then the likely culprit is your mags.
At roughly 1000 to 1200 rounds of M855 the M16/ M4 starts to show failures I its operations. Feeding problems was the big issues, this was more evident when soldiers over lubricated their rifle.
The BIG ARMY does not keep a decent record of round counts on their weapons systems and when something breaks or fails the PFC is yelling about his or her weapon is a POS and they need something more exotic and expensive. What they need is more training, not another weapon system, at the moment. This holds true especially of the Beretta M9 9mm Luger. It's one of, if not the best 9mm Luger available, assuming it's clean, lubricated and has new springs and barrel replacments every 15,000 rounds. And, mags are the biggest culprit of failures with the M9. Factory 15 round mags are the only thing that I will slap into my Beretta. Yes, I know Mec Gar makes them, but the factory mags are much better than the Mec Gar mags that they will send you if you order directly from them.
I agree 100%
As for the debate over caliber ? I think the 6.8 SPC is a no brainer, but if you hit your Tango 3 times with a 5.56 he's not going to be doing so well, especially if you've given him an M885 between the running lights.
The US Army and USMC both showed findings that moving to a larger caliber was pointless. That the issues were not caliber related but marksmanship training related. Hints if you train the soldiers to shoot head/ center chest, you won’t need a 6.8 Spc! I have the data if you would like to read it;)
I'm only speaking what I know, not what I've done, which isn't much compared to some of the guy's on this board, but I do have an opinion and you just read it.
Take it for what it's worth.
What is the advantage in carrying twice as many rounds if it takes four times as many hits to put the target down?
Just because you're shooting center of mass, doesn't mean your shot is gonna hit center of mass.
Forgive me, but I want a round that will incapacitate even with peripheral hits because the vast majority of the hits are going to be just that.
I am going to start a adoption home for all the unwanted/unloved M4s. If you got one and feel it falls into that category, please give them a better home.
PM me, I will give you my address and you can send them here. They will be cleaned, given a warm dry spot and fed good ammo regularly.
I will be putting in for a non-profit status if is seems warranted,
H's home for unwanted M4s.
The old carry more ammo argument never jibbed with me for that exact reason.
5.56 is good for ideal conditions, I wonder how many combat vets have seen that on a regular basis.
...if I'm going to war I'd much prefer a serious round :2c:
Yup, the 7.62's increased effective range, AND the redefinition of enemy "cover". Damn.
An M-14 (carbine? if that's what's wanted) I know it could be tooled up with existing M-14 machinery, and punched out in VOLUMES for the price of ONE F-22.
SOCOMs for all, dammit! Put it on MY (ex-USAF)tab.
5.56 is good for ideal conditions, I wonder how many combat vets have seen that on a regular basis.
Well the Army always needs a good M240 B gunner, and you get all the 7.62 you can carry5.56 is fun to use but if I'm going to war I'd much prefer a serious round :2c:
Yup, and I'm buying, dammit. :cool: I'm trading in my F-22.Okay that settles it; we give every soldier M14’s and M993 AP ammo. That way they will be able to still kill hajji when they miss! :doh:
More ammo is always preferred to less. One shot one kill maybe the sniper's ideal but the reality of a grunt is it takes lots and lots of rounds. Staying a live is better than the alternative, if your putting rounds down range the "opponent" will have problems putting rounds down range at you.
Yup, and I'm buying, dammit. :cool: I'm trading in my F-22.
You want M-14 regular, or carbine?
If 7.62 is going to be pushed on me, I will take it an Stoner AR form!
In the meantime You and me are gonna increase the shit out of the training budget...and switch to the Mk262. Yes? Maybe throw a piston upper on that bitch, with a match grade barrel. (and we ain't even kidding!)
What is the typical 5.56 combat load? 300rounds?
210 rounds is the standard
How much of that DOES become suppressing fire in a typical engagement? How much is used to "pin" the enemy?
Depends on the engagement and the actions being taken
Am I to understand that typically MOST of the 300rds is used for suppression fire?
210 rounds is suposed sustain you through a long gunfight
Is that until the guy with the 7.62 shows up and can penetrate what he's pinned behind?
Again it depends, normally if we are supressing. We are either breaking contact, maneuvring on the enemy, or supporting by fire for another unit.
Until something else is used? Gunship? I'm curious about the "typical" firefight. IS there such a thing? Nope Let's take a serious look at typical tactics and outcomes, if there is such a thing. Does Charlie (or Hadji) hide behind a tree in Afghanistan? Is he firing from behind a rock that a 7.62 isn't gonna penetrate anyway? What are the enemy using in Afghanistan? WTF is the norm (if there IS such a thing)?
There is no normal, they attack or we attack. Being ableto punch through cover is not a concern when you have a M203, AT4,or even a gunship!
Does the "typical" firefight usually end with Hadji (or Charlie) taking a "typical" center-of-mass hit at close range(without having to penetrate cover) with the 5.56, and then only after a bunch of supression fire?
Kill shot after you assault through the enemies position, if you get to take it that far. In my experience the enemy will blown to shit and we will pck up the body parts after the gunship blows what the enemy to shit! ;)
I don't know these answers, and that's why I'm asking. If OPSEC prevent's answers to these questions, I understand.
But, you bring up a Good question, Hollis.