Bashing of the M4

Viper1

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I'd rather the GOV spend the money on training & more ammo intead of another weapon.

Or another shiny uniform or piece of shiny metal for the uniform (i.e. the beret, the new blues, the acu, metal combat unit identifier badge for the blues, etc)
 

Rabid Badger

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I don't think RB was trying to bust on you here, more so trying to get some background so that he could offer advice in the proper areas... He is one of those people who forgets more while taking a dump then most of us will ever retain in a life time...

I can say for every service member on this board, that we appreciate any efforts out of your own free time at helping better our training and or equipment! Thank you for taking the time to write your government representatives in regards to these issues...

Great post and on the $$$$$$$$...

AZG, with your experience at an engineering/RD level, WTF are you doing in a hospital wrestling crack addicts??

Determining level of experience is a vetting measure.

but I do know guns as a shooter and what the 'fellas' want.

I wrote 5 contracts for Triple Canopy, 4 of which were fielded, from the comfort of my bunker solo in Baghdad. I'm a cut n paste aholic.

PMP is a program I have yet to invest in but would be worth the time for any entrepreneurs wanting into the contract management business, either with DOD or DOS, HS, any of the big contractors.

http://pm.umd.edu/page.php?id=1

Another helpful site: TEC news (Technology news)

http://www.technologyevaluation.com/news/m_20081128.html

and fedbiz.gov (use a .mil address or a PMC as your source of reference)

http://www.govdirections.com/users/register/?gclid=CIbF5uTctpcCFQt4HgodGWO7kA

Have a good one and good luck!!

AZG, send the link to Sen McCain's website/email??

}:-):2c:;)
 
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arizonaguide

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Thanks RB!

AZG, with your experience at an engineering/RD level, WTF are you doing in a hospital wrestling crack addicts??

AZG, send the link to Sen McCain's website/email??
THAT's what my Dad keeps asking!! :doh:

RB, thanks for that question. It's a funny silly-ass notion I have about "making a difference" (read that: stupid "sheepdog/hero" complex). Things changed after my Mom died last February...(resulting in serious "soul-searching" about MY legacy, and how I want to be remembered).

I wanted to go back into the Military right after 9-11, but had to put everything on hold to care for Mom for 5 years (alzheimers).
So, NOW I'm what you could call "pent up" (feel like I'm behind the power-curve)to make a difference.
I tried to get in again last year (Intel or MP), as Mom was passing, but there were medical issues (bullshit, and since proven wrong) with the MEPS doctors(idiots! no other word for it). Now, another year has gone by and I aint any younger. (but still a bit of an adrenaline junky).
:uhh:

But, I have come to the conclusion that I SHOULD find a better protection gig (one that I can believe in)...as the current company/people (mostly)suck. Just have a couple more things to do (teach) first, and another couple important purchases to make before vacation/re-evaluation.}:-)

That, or maybe back to (fulltime) Tourguide work, where I was "changing the world 10 people at a time":cool:
(example: I had an israeli family and arab family on the same tour, who became "friends" at the Grand Canyon with my help...good stuff.)
My tours are small (10 person), so much more "intimate/personal" than the big busses. That, and if I can help here at SS, and with our folks overseas, at least that's making a difference.

Thanks RB! for the kind words. And thanks for the links/information. I will pass that stuff on. I do know of a couple folks who are also sending a copy of the letter to their congress people, so we should be able to at least get the "151rds to combat" issues resolved.

The equipment issue is a "bigger story" ($$$/egos/contracts/etc) though...and all the points folks have brought up are very valid.
I (like JAB) am interested in more info about PMP, and etc. Good stuff RB!
Thanks.
 

Diamondback 2/2

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When reports first came out about the stoppages with the M4 carbine I had one question..........."Who and what units where they speaking too when they came up those conclusions?"

I had the same questions, but geared more towards combat arms or combat service and support. The round count and training time as per STRAC allows for more training time and round count for combat arms. (at least on the NG side)

Thus, if your asking a bunch of 19 year PFC's from a conventional ANG unit your likely not going to here much good about the M4 platform. These are the soldiers that cannot tell you what a gas block is, nor the difference between a "buffer" and a "bolt" Not knocking the ANG but if your not asking a Special Forces soldier, a Navy SEAL or other SOF BTDT's then it's likely that your talking to soldiers that have little if any knowledge about lubricating the weapon properly, maintaining a ready full parts kit to replace bolt gas rings, inproved extractor upgrades etc, and they sport crappy mags due also to their lack of maintaining them. It's been my experience with our local Reserve engineer Brigade that they have little if any real knowledge of their weapons systems, espcially the Beretta M9. I mean really, how much sidearm training do the ANG unit soldiers really get ? Not much and then they complain when their M9 go's down. It just so happens that they have an M9 pistol that has never had a new spring kit installed, nor a new barrel and it's at it's service life when issued. Take any pistol and put 30,000 rounds through it and your going to be picking pieces of it on the deck. And, they can't hit their targets with a 9mm Luger, let alone a .45 ACP 1911 clone, which is what most seem to be asking for. Yeah, one thing at a time their cherry bomb.

Depends on the units and what their commanders spend their funds on… I have taught NG soldiers with a result of 40 to 60% increase of accuracy with minimal round counts. I have also taught SOF soldiers who showed a low % increase on the same training concepts. Why? EGO! I have also had “smart” soldiers from both sides walk away with my TSP/ lesson plans and urge to make some changes…

I remember hearing or reading stories about ANG unit soldiers that where convinced that running their M16/M4's completley dry in Afghan and Iraq was a good thing because lubricant attracts the dust and sand. Larry Vickers will tell you all day long that he'd rather have a wet and sandy rifle than a dry and sandy rifle. Makes sense to me, how about you ?

There are 6 rails on the bolt carrier group that require minimal lubrications. Running a M16/ M4 in the sand box with a lot of lube is a disaster waiting to happen; I am sure Larry Vickers was meaning don't run it "bone dry" but I am also sure he will concur that a lot of lube in the sand will ruin your day.

Hell, I learned more about the M16/M4 platform AFTER I got out of the Army than I ever did while IN THE ARMY. :confused: But, that's the BIG ARMY, not the SOF side.

Yep! However the information is readily available in the army and there are plenty of course to take to get up to speed. Big army spends 2 hours every morning on physical fitness training, how much time do they spend every day training soldiers to kill with their rifle???

Do I like the gas piston system ? You betcha, but a well maintained M4 standard gas impingement system should run smoothly for up to 5,000 rounds before needing any parts replacement or real scrubbing. If your having stoppages then the likely culprit is your mags.

At roughly 1000 to 1200 rounds of M855 the M16/ M4 starts to show failures I its operations. Feeding problems was the big issues, this was more evident when soldiers over lubricated their rifle.

The BIG ARMY does not keep a decent record of round counts on their weapons systems and when something breaks or fails the PFC is yelling about his or her weapon is a POS and they need something more exotic and expensive. What they need is more training, not another weapon system, at the moment. This holds true especially of the Beretta M9 9mm Luger. It's one of, if not the best 9mm Luger available, assuming it's clean, lubricated and has new springs and barrel replacments every 15,000 rounds. And, mags are the biggest culprit of failures with the M9. Factory 15 round mags are the only thing that I will slap into my Beretta. Yes, I know Mec Gar makes them, but the factory mags are much better than the Mec Gar mags that they will send you if you order directly from them.

I agree 100%

As for the debate over caliber ? I think the 6.8 SPC is a no brainer, but if you hit your Tango 3 times with a 5.56 he's not going to be doing so well, especially if you've given him an M885 between the running lights.

The US Army and USMC both showed findings that moving to a larger caliber was pointless. That the issues were not caliber related but marksmanship training related. Hints if you train the soldiers to shoot head/ center chest, you won’t need a 6.8 Spc! I have the data if you would like to read it;)

I'm only speaking what I know, not what I've done, which isn't much compared to some of the guy's on this board, but I do have an opinion and you just read it.

Take it for what it's worth.
I agree with training joe to shoot first, however there are minimal things that can be done to the M4 to make it a lot more affective! Why buy an ACOG and Aim Point? Why not have one optic system that had both intergraded, standardizing your training even further? Why replace a barrel with MIL-SPEC when you can put a target barrel with 1/7 twist? Why run M855 when MK262 is more accurate and just as affective?

Good post 82ND, I just wanted to clear some things up:D
 

HOLLiS

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I am going to start a adoption home for all the unwanted/unloved M4s. If you got one and feel it falls into that category, please give them a better home.

PM me, I will give you my address and you can send them here. They will be cleaned, given a warm dry spot and fed good ammo regularly.

I will be putting in for a non-profit status if is seems warranted,

Thank you.

H.

H's home for unwanted M4s.
 
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arizonaguide

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Hell, I'd be happy to just take just one of the old non-piston uppers, when the Big Army swap out time comes!
(wish I could find a good lower receiver right now, though).
:2c:
 

P. Beck

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What is the advantage in carrying twice as many rounds if it takes four times as many hits to put the target down?

"...if you train the soldiers to shoot head/ center chest..."

Shooting only for the head and chest is just peachy. I practice it. I do it. I teach it. And if we could just get Hajji to train his guys to stand still, like on a pop-up range, that would be really keen too. Little fuquers just haven't got the memo and they've been known to move.

Just because you're shooting center of mass, doesn't mean your shot is gonna hit center of mass. Gunfights aren't laser tag. There's this little thing called "time of flight". Ask any cop who's been through an OIS investigation that involved him firing at a suspect who chose that exact instant to turn and, what would have been a nice CoM hit and a clean shoot, now everybody wants to know why he shot the suspect in the back.

Forgive me, but I want a round that will incapacitate even with peripheral hits because the vast majority of the hits are going to be just that. And that may be all you going to get on that particular hajji that day. I want a round that drops the target as if he was hit by lightning, no matter where I hit him. I want a round that causes the target to question his belief in allah. I want a round that blows off body parts. I want "impressive secondary kinetic effects." And I know for a fact that it's technically possible.

Hajji likes to do the old un-aimed, ak-over-the-wall, spray and pray.
I have, on more than one occasion sighted in on where I last saw arms and fired when they popped out again. I have also used the arms as a reference to gauge where Hajji was standing, off-set my point of aim a little and fired through the mud wall and scored.

Anybody who's been reading my posts knows that I favor a regular old, rack-grade, plastic-stocked, minute-of-hajji M14, stoked exclusively with M993 AP. 126 grains of cupra-nickel jacketed tungsten, at 2985 fps, slows down when it gets tired. Getting one of those through one or both fore-arms tends to have a negative effect on your offensive potential. Not to mention your ability to feed yourself or wipe your own ass. Another side benefit is that if I hit the weapon? It's out of action. M855 will not do this.

One round of M993 AP?: $1.14
The look on Hajji's face when that mud wall turns out not to be cover after all?: Priceless.
 
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arizonaguide

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Yup, and they could easily "tool up" and spit out M-14 (carbines?) quickly and all-day-long, if there really was a demand. This just seems important to me with the emphais probably moving to Afghanistan's longer ranges, soon.

If not, then at least go to the mk262 round, as JAB points out?



:2c:
 

pardus

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What is the advantage in carrying twice as many rounds if it takes four times as many hits to put the target down?

Just because you're shooting center of mass, doesn't mean your shot is gonna hit center of mass.

Forgive me, but I want a round that will incapacitate even with peripheral hits because the vast majority of the hits are going to be just that.

Exactly!!!

The old carry more ammo argument never jibbed with me for that exact reason.
People don't take into effect penetration power through walls etc...

5.56 is good for ideal conditions, I wonder how many combat vets have seen that on a regular basis.

5.56 is fun to use but if I'm going to war I'd much prefer a serious round :2c:
 

0699

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I am going to start a adoption home for all the unwanted/unloved M4s. If you got one and feel it falls into that category, please give them a better home.

PM me, I will give you my address and you can send them here. They will be cleaned, given a warm dry spot and fed good ammo regularly.

I will be putting in for a non-profit status if is seems warranted,

Thank you.

H.

H's home for unwanted M4s.

What would work out really nice (even though I know it won't happen) is if the Army sold off the old M-4s to help pay for the new weapon (if they go that route). Even with replacing the current trigger group for a semi-only trigger group, they'd make money selling them.

I'd buy one. Tried to get our armorer to "lose" mine when I checked out, but he's too honest... :(

:D
 
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arizonaguide

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The old carry more ammo argument never jibbed with me for that exact reason.

5.56 is good for ideal conditions, I wonder how many combat vets have seen that on a regular basis.

...if I'm going to war I'd much prefer a serious round :2c:

Yup, the 7.62's increased effective range, AND the redefinition of enemy "cover". Damn.
I know the M-14 (carbine?) could be tooled up with existing M-14 machinery, and punched out in VOLUMES for the price of ONE F-22.

SOCOMs for all, dammit! Put it on MY (ex-USAF)tab.
 

HOLLiS

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Yup, the 7.62's increased effective range, AND the redefinition of enemy "cover". Damn.
An M-14 (carbine? if that's what's wanted) I know it could be tooled up with existing M-14 machinery, and punched out in VOLUMES for the price of ONE F-22.
SOCOMs for all, dammit! Put it on MY (ex-USAF)tab.

This is a old discussion that has been going around in circle for years, a least 40 years that I know of.

Yes if we can keep Hajj standing still, or Charlie, or even better, keeping the battle scape the same in every conflict.


More ammo is always preferred to less. One shot one kill maybe the sniper's ideal but the reality of a grunt is it takes lots and lots of rounds. Staying a live is better than the alternative, if your putting rounds down range the "opponent" will have problems putting rounds down range at you.

If your in a fix position the M14 is a great weapon, if you are a mule it is not. If your in a fixed position there are other choices too. Everything is going to be a trade off. When your "opponent" does manage to get a shot off your next shot may be less than ideal. Effective fire is what a grunt shoots for.

I should dig up the Marine Corps rules of gun fighting. If you got the time to B-R-A-S-S, then you are at the range, not in a fire fight.
 

Diamondback 2/2

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Okay that settles it; we give every soldier M14’s and M993 AP ammo. That way they will be able to still kill hajji when they miss! :doh:

The USMC in their findings and said that their Marines simply were not trained well enough to hit the target and even when they did it was in non vital places with little to low affect, regardless of caliber used..

It is not a bullet issue, it is a marksmanship training issue!!!

5.56 is good for ideal conditions, I wonder how many combat vets have seen that on a regular basis.

I will take 5.56 over 7.62 (rifle) any day of the week!

5.56 is fun to use but if I'm going to war I'd much prefer a serious round :2c:
Well the Army always needs a good M240 B gunner, and you get all the 7.62 you can carry:D
 
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arizonaguide

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Okay that settles it; we give every soldier M14’s and M993 AP ammo. That way they will be able to still kill hajji when they miss! :doh:
Yup, and I'm buying, dammit. :cool: I'm trading in my F-22.
You want M-14 regular, or carbine?

In the meantime You and me are gonna increase the shit out of the training budget...and switch to the Mk262. Yes? Maybe throw a piston upper on that bitch, with a match grade barrel. (and we ain't even kidding!)
:)

More ammo is always preferred to less. One shot one kill maybe the sniper's ideal but the reality of a grunt is it takes lots and lots of rounds. Staying a live is better than the alternative, if your putting rounds down range the "opponent" will have problems putting rounds down range at you.

What is the typical 5.56 combat load? 300rounds? How much of that DOES become suppressing fire in a typical engagement? How much is used to "pin" the enemy? Am I to understand that typically MOST of the 300rds is used for suppression fire? Is that until the guy with the 7.62 shows up and can penetrate what he's pinned behind? Until something else is used? Gunship? I'm curious about the "typical" firefight. IS there such a thing? Let's take a serious look at typical tactics and outcomes, if there is such a thing. Does Charlie (or Hadji) hide behind a tree in Afghanistan? Is he firing from behind a rock that a 7.62 isn't gonna penetrate anyway? What are the enemy using in Afghanistan? WTF is the norm (if there IS such a thing)?

Does the "typical" firefight usually end with Hadji (or Charlie) taking a "typical" center-of-mass hit at close range(without having to penetrate cover) with the 5.56, and then only after a bunch of supression fire?

I don't know these answers, and that's why I'm asking. If OPSEC prevent's answers to these questions, I understand.
But, you bring up a Good question, Hollis.
 

pardus

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Well the Army always needs a good M240 B gunner, and you get all the 7.62 you can carry:D


Fuck yeah, That is my favourite weapon and the one I'd carry over anything else giving the choice! :cool:
 

Diamondback 2/2

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Yup, and I'm buying, dammit. :cool: I'm trading in my F-22.
You want M-14 regular, or carbine?

If 7.62 is going to be pushed on me, I will take it an Stoner AR form!


In the meantime You and me are gonna increase the shit out of the training budget...and switch to the Mk262. Yes? Maybe throw a piston upper on that bitch, with a match grade barrel. (and we ain't even kidding!)
:)



What is the typical 5.56 combat load? 300rounds?

210 rounds is the standard

How much of that DOES become suppressing fire in a typical engagement? How much is used to "pin" the enemy?

Depends on the engagement and the actions being taken

Am I to understand that typically MOST of the 300rds is used for suppression fire?

210 rounds is suposed sustain you through a long gunfight

Is that until the guy with the 7.62 shows up and can penetrate what he's pinned behind?

Again it depends, normally if we are supressing. We are either breaking contact, maneuvring on the enemy, or supporting by fire for another unit.

Until something else is used? Gunship? I'm curious about the "typical" firefight. IS there such a thing? Nope Let's take a serious look at typical tactics and outcomes, if there is such a thing. Does Charlie (or Hadji) hide behind a tree in Afghanistan? Is he firing from behind a rock that a 7.62 isn't gonna penetrate anyway? What are the enemy using in Afghanistan? WTF is the norm (if there IS such a thing)?

There is no normal, they attack or we attack. Being ableto punch through cover is not a concern when you have a M203, AT4,or even a gunship!

Does the "typical" firefight usually end with Hadji (or Charlie) taking a "typical" center-of-mass hit at close range(without having to penetrate cover) with the 5.56, and then only after a bunch of supression fire?

Kill shot after you assault through the enemies position, if you get to take it that far. In my experience the enemy will blown to shit and we will pck up the body parts after the gunship blows what the enemy to shit! ;)

I don't know these answers, and that's why I'm asking. If OPSEC prevent's answers to these questions, I understand.
But, you bring up a Good question, Hollis.

I am not saying that 7.62 is not another tool to keep in the bag, every rifle comapany has a few... I am saying there is no reason to put that kind of weight and recoil on a riflemen. Besides it will never mean shit anyway unless you train them to be better shooters!!!:cool:
 
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