Centrifuge Training

256

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pert near Lake Erie
#1
Last year I got to take Will Petty’s VCQB (vehicle cqb). For Police Officers it’s a great class because we’re around vehicles all the time. It’s a great class for anyone that carriers a gun on any given day, really. Will explains and demonstrates (more important) how handgun and rifle projectiles interact with different areas of the vehicle, and shows you how to use the vehicle for cover.


Picture one: Will asked us how many rounds of 5.55 it would take to get through side A and B of the vehicle to hit a target. My guess was 25, wrong awnser. 95 rounds later the target had zero holes in it. The point being a vehicle is more cover then people give it credit for. If it’s the only thing you have, Will shows you where to use it.

Picture two: The A-pillar shot at with .308, .45 ACP, .40, 9mm and 12 gauge slug, zero pass through.

Picture three: These are zoomed in photos of the .45 ACP, didn’t even get through the sheet metal. 9mm and .308 has the most penetration to pillars.

Picture four: Will explained the dynamics of shooting through vehicle glass. To me this is so important to put in the back of your mind. I thought how terrifying it would be to wonder why you’re not hitting a threat 5 feet in front of your vehicle.

I can get into more detail if anyone is interested, I did not see anything pertaining to this subject anywhere else. Sorry if I missed it.

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256

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#5
Yeah I can’t say for sure. After seeing it take 95 rounds of whatever, don’t think 855 would make too much of a difference. During a gun fight no one is shooting at one spot on the vehicle 95 times in a row. It’s just to show you can use the vehicle for cover. Police Officers are told in training the only place to take cover on the vehicle is the engine and tires. This training blew that away.
 

Ocoka

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#6
During the famous LA bank robbery shootout years ago the perps purposely aimed underneath the cars to hit the cops in the legs, knees etc.
 

256

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#10
If I’m understanding you’re asking if they will hit the glass and enter at a 90 degree angle?

Basically what happens regardless of caliber section (rifle including .338 or pistol) bullets fired from the outside to the inside will travel at a downward angle. Firing inside through the window, the rounds will travel at an upward angle. How drastic that angle is depends (mostly) on the “rake” of the glass or windshield you’re firing through. The steeper the rake the steeper the path of the projectile with change.

For example (and I wouldn’t have believed this unless I saw it) Petty put a target directly in front of the vehicle. He attempted to fire center mass and had ZERO hits on target. It’s really interesting stuff that could save your life. I gave him my SCAR 17 (department issued..kinda) used Federal GMM 168s and we tried to hit a target going through both front and rear windshields, zero hits.

In order to get rounds on target through windshields you have to fire through the same hole.

Hope that cleared up the picture.

@256 regarding the fourth photo, a bullet that strikes glass will exit perpendicular to the medium?
 
Joined
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#11
@256 They go through the crowding the V stuff in relation to skipping rounds? Always thought that was eye opening to see. Makes you think about floors/walls/angles a little more.
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
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#12
Hope that cleared up the picture.
I guess I need to rephrase. I see the angle of the rake affects the bullet's path, but regardless of the rake will they always exit perpendicularly (maybe off by a few degrees of course) to the glass? Say a bullets strikes the glass at a 60 degree angle, does its path change by 30 degrees to exit perpendicularly to the glass? (I think I have my geometry right)
 

256

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#14
I guess I need to rephrase. I see the angle of the rake affects the bullet's path, but regardless of the rake will they always exit perpendicularly (maybe off by a few degrees of course) to the glass? Say a bullets strikes the glass at a 60 degree angle, does its path change by 30 degrees to exit perpendicularly to the glass? (I think I have my geometry right)
From my experience yes. I don’t have enough experience with it to say this rake angle will exit at this angel or that. I did shoot through a bunch of windshields and I only got hits when “porting” the window. Simplifying it, if shooting out you have port the windshield to get hits. Shooting at the driver of a vehicle from outside, the rake will aid you in getting good effects.

Did that make sense?
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
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#15
From my experience yes. I don’t have enough experience with it to say this rake angle will exit at this angel or that. I did shoot through a bunch of windshields and I only got hits when “porting” the window. Simplifying it, if shooting out you have port the windshield to get hits. Shooting at the driver of a vehicle from outside, the rake will aid you in getting good effects.

Did that make sense?
Yep! Thank you for taking the time to indulge me.

Lesson learned: bring a Carl Gustav. The only rake angle you should consider is with leaves. 8-)
 
Joined
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#16
No, I’m not sure I’ve heard anything about that. Maybe you can enlighten me?
From the above comment on round skipping:

A guy was showing how rounds skip off hoods. The comments were more on the staying back off the hood not using it as a platform but getting same cover/concealment a little farther back, without worry of a round skipping into you. The V comment was if you exited a car and had a threat in front. If rounds coming at you did hit the hood and you were in that wedge, be real low for a lot of reasons, one shown was the rounds skipping high into that gap. I just thought it was interesting to see rounds skip and be placed in paper.

The round skipping and term used is what stuck in my head, but didn’t know if that is a “thing” or more catchy way to get a simple concept with broader implications (cover/concealment/positioning) to stick. After writing that I think I have the answer.
 

R.Caerbannog

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#17
@256 I'm sorry, but that looks sketchy as all heck. The shot placement on the first picture looks like all the shots were purposely placed on the part of the car where the door and the frame meet. I can see taking cover behind an engine block, but behind a civie car door... I dunno. Was this a confidence course btw?
 

256

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#18
From the above comment on round skipping:

A guy was showing how rounds skip off hoods. The comments were more on the staying back off the hood not using it as a platform but getting same cover/concealment a little farther back, without worry of a round skipping into you. The V comment was if you exited a car and had a threat in front. If rounds coming at you did hit the hood and you were in that wedge, be real low for a lot of reasons, one shown was the rounds skipping high into that gap. I just thought it was interesting to see rounds skip and be placed in paper.

The round skipping and term used is what stuck in my head, but didn’t know if that is a “thing” or more catchy way to get a simple concept with broader implications (cover/concealment/positioning) to stick. After writing that I think I have the answer.

Ok, I understand now. Yep he demonstrated and replicated that exact issue. He got a target put it in the “V” (space between car door and car) and was able to skip rounds (9mm FMJ) off the hood and into the target. Seemed like he had demonstrated it so many times he could choose where the target would be hit. Ever see the old “felony traffic stop” where the cops stand in the V and call the perps back to them? Since going to this class I conduct all my work from the rear of my vehicle and never get back into my vehicle if I it’s not needed.
 

256

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pert near Lake Erie
#19
@256 I'm sorry, but that looks sketchy as all heck. The shot placement on the first picture looks like all the shots were purposely placed on the part of the car where the door and the frame meet. I can see taking cover behind an engine block, but behind a civie car door... I dunno. Was this a confidence course btw?

No need to apologize, I expected some questions. You’re absolutely right, he picked that spot for a reason. If you look at the last picture you’ll notice “NHTSA” written on the white van, which stands for National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. The shots are aimed purposefully at the bottom of the “B” pillar. The NHTSA sets industry wide standards on how strong those pillars must be. Some higher end vehicles have stronger pillars and will exceed those standards, but every vehicle in America will meet those standards. Basically someone figured out that when cars crash and roll over the pillars of the roof were failing, so the government got involved. We can all certainly agree that the door of a vehicle isn’t cover, but if a vehicle is all you have (Police work involves being in and around vehicles) pillars provide real cover. Which is why I showed the pictures of the ”A” pillar and the bottom of the ”B” pillar. Pillars of a vehicle stop bullets, with the exception of (I think) a .50. I did not witness that, Will just said it was the only round he could get through a pillar. Interestingly enough, it seems like those pillars are small but if you take one of your SAPI plates and put it against one you'd be surprised how big they are. Also, it’s important to understand that zero things in life are 100%. It’s absolutely possible to take cover behind the B pillar and catch a ricochet, bullets do crazy things.

Here's the deal, if you can get off the ”X” get the hell off. By no means should you being looking to use a vehicle to stop bullets if something else is available. But I’ve never been able to choose the location of where my gun fights were going to start. If a car is all you have, and you can’t get the hell out of there, you have options. Will talked about watching thousands of hours of police videos of gunfights around vehicles and there's zero that's sexy about it. Cops, for the most part don't retreat when facing an oppent, even if that’s exactly what they should do. So we can talk about running or getting off the X, but most of the time A type personalities stay and fight.

The class isn't a confidence course. It’s learning how high velocity projectiles interact with vehicles, what parts of the vehicle can be used as cover and how to engage targets inside or around vehicles.

I hope that cleared the air a little. If you have any other questions please don’t hesitate to ask.

PS I’m not trying to sell anyone on anything, just sharing my experience.
 
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