China and Taiwan

R.Caerbannog

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Do the protests in Hong Kong really matter in the long run? Isn’t HK going back to China? won’t the PRC just do what it wants when HK returns to them?
Maybe, maybe not. I'm just saying that HK is a tinderbox, with alot of valuable resources and real estate at play. The PRC has a surplus of bare branches, better for their kindling to ignite and burn in their home instead of somewhere else.
 

Marauder06

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Do the protests in Hong Kong really matter in the long run? Isn’t HK going back to China? won’t the PRC just do what it wants when HK returns to them?
China regained sovereignty over Hong Kong something like 20 years ago, brother. Part of the reason for the current protests is that it infringes on the city’s special status as a part of China.
 

Gunz

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Yep. 1997.

...it might help if we start throwing resources at the dissenters in the PRC (mainly Hong Kong). If we can't destroy the PRC, via conventional means, containing them and letting a resentful population tear them apart might be a better answer...

Just my 2c. China's too massive in area and population, too tightly controlled by an enormous bureaucracy, military and intelligence service for any kind of effective resistance movement to take shape...and a waste of money for any foreign nation trying to nurture a fledgling Fifth Column within the PRC.
 

R.Caerbannog

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Yep. 1997.




Just my 2c. China's too massive in area and population, too tightly controlled by an enormous bureaucracy, military and intelligence service for any kind of effective resistance movement to take shape...and a waste of money for any foreign nation trying to nurture a fledgling Fifth Column within the PRC.
I dunno. I'm not sure how much in control the PRC really is, they can barely keep their food clean and buildings from crumbling into each other. The other thing I was thinking, is that IED's and EFP's are cheap and HK is full of nooks and crannies. The kids protesting are going to be dead if the PRC gets it's way, figure it might be to our benefit if we give them just enough info and ordinance to make China regret taking HK.

If we want to keep the PRC contained we need to start destabilizing/sabotaging anything and everything that creates wealth for them. It might also be cheaper if we play using their pieces instead of ours.
 

Cookie_

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I dunno. I'm not sure how much in control the PRC really is, they can barely keep their food clean and buildings from crumbling into each other. The other thing I was thinking, is that IED's and EFP's are cheap and HK is full of nooks and crannies. The kids protesting are going to be dead if the PRC gets it's way, figure it might be to our benefit if we give them just enough info and ordinance to make China regret taking HK.

If we want to keep the PRC contained we need to start destabilizing/sabotaging anything and everything that creates wealth for them. It might also be cheaper if we play using their pieces instead of ours.
It's a good thing we have a strong history of supporting rebel groups that never comes back to bite us in the ass. I mean, just look at our history in South America and the Middle East. /S

Jokes aside, I think we're fast approaching (if not already there) a world in which US involvement in those types of situations are going to be impossible to keep hidden. The days of proxy wars are ending; supporting rebel groups within peer/near-peer states is going to become full on war very quickly.
I'm not sure if that's something in our country's best interests.
 

R.Caerbannog

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It's a good thing we have a strong history of supporting rebel groups that never comes back to bite us in the ass. I mean, just look at our history in South America and the Middle East. /S

Jokes aside, I think we're fast approaching (if not already there) a world in which US involvement in those types of situations are going to be impossible to keep hidden. The days of proxy wars are ending; supporting rebel groups within peer/near-peer states is going to become full on war very quickly.
I'm not sure if that's something in our country's best interests.
Honestly, I'm thinking that anything we can do to set fire to mainland China is fair game. If we want to keep Taiwan from being steam rolled and American interests in the region safe we're gonna have to be more proactive, like the Chinese.
 

Box

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China? As long as they aren't either on Twitter or on FaceBook posting about white supremacy or gun control, they could bulldoze Taiwan into the South China Sea and very few people would notice.
...unless it gave them a chance to snipe a few political jabs at the POTUS
 

SaintKP

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Honestly, I'm thinking that anything we can do to set fire to mainland China is fair game. If we want to keep Taiwan from being steam rolled and American interests in the region safe we're gonna have to be more proactive, like the Chinese.

Is America really in a position militarily or even socially unified enough to take on a near-peer adversary, in what would inevitably turn into a full scale conventional war? A war that by any measures would be extremely un popular with the public following right on the heels of another extremely unpopular war?
 

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Is America really in a position militarily or even socially unified enough to take on a near-peer adversary, in what would inevitably turn into a full scale conventional war? A war that by any measures would be extremely un popular with the public following right on the heels of another extremely unpopular war?
Nothing unifies the American people more than being attacked. China, Russia, etc. It would become hell on earth in their neck of the woods. Of course that was true pre-snowflake culture, so maybe I'm completely wrong. But you never saw a more United America (politics wise) until after 9/11 at least until we went into Iraq.
 

SaintKP

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Nothing unifies the American people more than being attacked. China, Russia, etc. It would become hell on earth in their neck of the woods. Of course that was true pre-snowflake culture, so maybe I'm completely wrong. But you never saw a more United America (politics wise) until after 9/11 at least until we went into Iraq.

I full heartedly agree, and even in the current political climate we're in now I still think an attack against the US would be a largely unifying factor. But I don't believe China is that bold (or stupid) to outright attack us, or a more likely scenario payout a third party to do their bidding.

They've been playing the "I'm not touching you" game for a long time now, I find it hard to believe they would just jump the shark. Unless we started as @R.Caerbannog stated, actively pissing in their cornflakes. Even then, wouldn't it be difficult to hide that we're actively trying to provoke an attack in a world where almost all information is barely kept secret?
 

Box

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Observing our current government - it seems pretty unlikely that we are really postured to do anything of substance on a global scale. The left half of our citizens are more than comfortable electing leaders that are now publicly stating that the right half of our citizens are supporters violent white supremacy.
The right half of our citizens have very little problem painting the left half as a group of self absorbed pseudo-communists dead set on destroying the America that was created in 1776 and replacing it with a more enlightened socialist America that controls all facets of daily life.

The truth doesn't matter anymore since the only bipartisan concept at play in modern America is Whataboutism.
It doesn't matter that my guy did it - because your guy did it too....
Hell, modern social discourse has driven me to a postion of such shamelessly partisan behavior that I can't even jack off with my "left" hand any more - and from the things I hear and read every day - I'm not the only one that has drifted down that path.

How can a nation that refuses to even agree on the most common issues of the day REALLY compete with China in a lasting meaningful way?
 

R.Caerbannog

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Is America really in a position militarily or even socially unified enough to take on a near-peer adversary, in what would inevitably turn into a full scale conventional war? A war that by any measures would be extremely un popular with the public following right on the heels of another extremely unpopular war?
I think you're assuming that it's beneficial for China to wage full scale war on us. At the moment, the PRC is going through it's modernization phase and the testing/integration of it's newly acquired gear and weapon platforms. There was a thread here about China breaching S. Korean airspace with Russian support, if that helps paint a picture.

The PRC still has to import most of it's food, raw materials, and energy, I don't think they can afford confront us conventionally until they get those ducks in order.
Nothing unifies the American people more than being attacked. China, Russia, etc. It would become hell on earth in their neck of the woods. Of course that was true pre-snowflake culture, so maybe I'm completely wrong. But you never saw a more United America (politics wise) until after 9/11 at least until we went into Iraq.
You're right. It's takes too much to unite us and we have subsets of the public that are actively aiding and abetting the spread of communism and it's ideals. Snowflakes like those Antifa clowns are, in my mind, some of the best tools the commies have to sow discord and keep the public divided.

I full heartedly agree, and even in the current political climate we're in now I still think an attack against the US would be a largely unifying factor. But I don't believe China is that bold (or stupid) to outright attack us, or a more likely scenario payout a third party to do their bidding.

They've been playing the "I'm not touching you" game for a long time now, I find it hard to believe they would just jump the shark. Unless we started as @R.Caerbannog stated, actively pissing in their cornflakes. Even then, wouldn't it be difficult to hide that we're actively trying to provoke an attack in a world where almost all information is barely kept secret?
For the moment I think that the PRC is going to keep playing 'shadow games' with the American public and the rest of the world. It's in the PRC's best interest to keep us on the back foot, while they grow and strengthen their global roots. Regardless of the games China is playing, I think we can do it better.

Picture the PRC as invasive bamboo. It takes a while for bamboo to grow, but when it has it's root systems in place it can be destructive, pop up most anywhere, and is extremely hard to uproot. What I'm saying is that we can bore away at their root systems or starve them of water, without the birds and bees noticing.
 
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R.Caerbannog

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Observing our current government - it seems pretty unlikely that we are really postured to do anything of substance on a global scale. The left half of our citizens are more than comfortable electing leaders that are now publicly stating that the right half of our citizens are supporters violent white supremacy.
The right half of our citizens have very little problem painting the left half as a group of self absorbed pseudo-communists dead set on destroying the America that was created in 1776 and replacing it with a more enlightened socialist America that controls all facets of daily life.

The truth doesn't matter anymore since the only bipartisan concept at play in modern America is Whataboutism.
It doesn't matter that my guy did it - because your guy did it too....
Hell, modern social discourse has driven me to a postion of such shamelessly partisan behavior that I can't even jack off with my "left" hand any more - and from the things I hear and read every day - I'm not the only one that has drifted down that path.

How can a nation that refuses to even agree on the most common issues of the day REALLY compete with China in a lasting meaningful way?
Honestly, I think it's only a small subset of the population that is actively spreading dissent. I'm betting the most successful of these infiltrators are being backed by our enemies or are members of the public who've been ideologically turned. It doesn't help that Marxists have infiltrated and now dominate the fields of education and mass media.
 

Box

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I dont disagree with you - its that same small subset of dissenters that obstruct everyone else from trying to "get at" the problem.

I also think that the same subset of americans that have been ideologically turned towards this utopian fallacy of 'democratic socialism' wouldn't hesitate to treat dissenters in the USA the exact same way that China currently treat THEIR dissenters.

Dissent is only good when it is "my team" raging against the machine - all others must be punished.
Its a 'Brave New World' that we are living in
 

R.Caerbannog

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If Taiwan and the adjacent countries are gonna want support against China, they're gonna have to step up their efforts against the PRC's massive PR machine. The way things are going, it seems like the Chinese mainland is insanely good at projecting soft force at it's enemies.
 

lindy

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Nothing unifies the American people more than being attacked.
We could have another FKIA of +3k and the opposing side (left or right) would, I believe, cheer. Yes, I think Americans would be happy because other Americans died because they’re not viewed as countrymen but enemies. I don’t think there is any situation We could encounter that would unite Americans like We were just 8 years ago. I cannot imagine the people of CA, OR, NY, or MD supporting all Americans regardless of ideology. Maybe it’s possible and I hope I’m wrong.

Toward the end of 2018, Gallup updated a relatively long trend asking Americans whether they thought the upcoming year (2019) would be "a year when America will increase its power in the world, or a year when American power will decline." Americans were divided, with 49% choosing each option.
Americans Split on Outlook for U.S. Power
 

Marauder06

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"China Is About To Monkey Stomp The S#!t Out Of Hong Kong. Here’s Why."

...China has positioned troops nearby, they’ve infiltrated special police, they’re cracking down on social media, and they’re doing a LOT of political signaling indicating that they’ve had about enough of Hong Kong’s crap. Moreover, the protests have gotten larger, more dynamic, and better able to deal with the local police’s crowd dispersal tactics. And, oh yeah, the protesters shut down the airport. Additionally, all of that US flag waving going on inside of Hong Kong has GOT to sting.You know what that means: “Bedtime with Bonzo” is over. “Curious George Tries To Protest” is gone. It’s now time for King Kong to take over.
link

1565967709651.png
 

R.Caerbannog

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"China Is About To Monkey Stomp The S#!t Out Of Hong Kong. Here’s Why."



link

View attachment 28986
Not trying to nitpick and I'm sorry if I am. Pretty sure Taiwan is it's own country, just cause the Chicoms say they ain't doesn't make it so. Chicoms are also about to try and subjugate a densely packed multi-tiered city, without local support.

If the kids in HK can cobble together some IED's, incendiaries, and demo, those PRC transports may as well be carrying fish. Worse comes to worse, HK can bring down their city on top of the Chicoms. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling the PLA and mainland China aren't going to walk out of HK unscathed or unbroken.
 

Marauder06

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Not trying to nitpick and I'm sorry if I am. Pretty sure Taiwan is it's own country, just cause the Chicoms say they ain't doesn't make it so. Chicoms are also about to try and subjugate a densely packed multi-tiered city, without local support.

If the kids in HK can cobble together some IED's, incendiaries, and demo, those PRC transports may as well be carrying fish. Worse comes to worse, HK can bring down their city on top of the Chicoms. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling the PLA and mainland China aren't going to walk out of HK unscathed or unbroken.
Relationship status: "it's complicated."
Political status of Taiwan - Wikipedia
 
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