Iran discussion

Gunz

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Older societies tend to have the kind patience and long-term outlook that Americans often lack. The Chinese and Vietnamese, for example, think in terms of centuries, not years or decades. If they have to wait a hundred years for a diplomatic victory, it's not that big of a deal. They may not be around to enjoy it, but their descendants will. And that makes sense to them, it's logical.

We always want the quick fix, the magic bullet. And I think that's a big disadvantage when negotiating with people who think in terms of generations down the road.
 

AWP

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Iran made the whole "Axis of Evil" list (nice nod to the 1940's. Are we ever going to get past that?) and then had their nuke drama play out over three presidencies. Before that we had the Tanker wars and Iran's support for Hezbollah. Then before that we had something involving Lebanon and our embassy so yeah, no point in focusing on Iran and making it a Top 5 or even Top 3 on our list of priorities.
 

Etype

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Iran made the whole "Axis of Evil" list (nice nod to the 1940's. Are we ever going to get past that?) and then had their nuke drama play out over three presidencies. Before that we had the Tanker wars and Iran's support for Hezbollah. Then before that we had something involving Lebanon and our embassy so yeah, no point in focusing on Iran and making it a Top 5 or even Top 3 on our list of priorities.
Iran is also responsible for the modern interpretation of martyrdom, particularly as it pertains to suicide bombing.

They are also calling for the unification of all islamist groups (particularly those fighting in Syria and Iraq) to fight against the west.

How dangerous are those two are ideas?
 

lindy

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The SECSTATES have to focus on a bout a 100 other fucking huge things besides Iran and whatever the fuck their "game" is.
Which is why the different "desks" take the lead of heavy lifting and just advise the Secretary, who seeks guidance from POTUS for his orders. If those 100 other things are important, then we should prioritize.

Chapter 3: State Sponsors of Terrorism Overview
 

Diamondback 2/2

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We do prioritize. We here on this board look at the things we see all the time as being the most important. Terrorism isn't the most important thing. Iran is not the most important thing. Those are small issues compared to dealing with China, an emerging Asian market. Russia and whatever they are playing at, general economic interests, all these things are more pressing daily l, monthly and yearly than Iran.
Yes and no, I think it's a bit hard to ignore Irans strategic importance to the region.

The issue that I personally see is that we are the economic power house. We set markets and have the ability to control prices and or sanction other nations/states that don't play ball. We have that capability now, but we can lose it, and these little fires we keep stomping out are efforts to maintain our capabilites.

The average American of today would have a mental fit if they understood how bad we been fucking the non-western world. You put a face of terrorism on it and say we are being attacked, and nobody is crying about a middle eastern man, African man, south American man, making $200 a month, living in a shack and piss in in a ditch. Well a few are, a few send their fifteen dollars a month, but they are still driving cars worth a decade of salary for these people, eating more calories in a day than these people get in a month, etc.

I wish we had some government leaders actually come forward and spell the world out as it is. "Yeah we have been fucking everyone, but if you want to keep living high on the hog, you have to deal with it or change it". Than watch how many assholes are cool with not being able to play on smartphones, eat fast food and ride in style. Can't wait to see Johnny and Suizy riding on top of a bus because the fair is cheaper...


Okay I'll stop.
 

lindy

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We do prioritize. We here on this board look at the things we see all the time as being the most important. Terrorism isn't the most important thing. Iran is not the most important thing. Those are small issues compared to dealing with China, an emerging Asian market. Russia and whatever they are playing at, general economic interests, all these things are more pressing daily l, monthly and yearly than Iran.
I partially agree.

Remarks on the United States Foreign Policy Agenda for 2016
 

Salt USMC

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Iran is also responsible for the modern interpretation of martyrdom, particularly as it pertains to suicide bombing.

They are also calling for the unification of all islamist groups (particularly those fighting in Syria and Iraq) to fight against the west.

How dangerous are those two are ideas?
Disagree, somewhat.

It's true that Khomeini wrote extensively on the virtues of shahidat, but in practice Shia martyrdom tends to look more like the romanticized version of a noble sacrifice. Iranian martyrs, for example, don't blow themselves up, but rather go into absolutely hopeless fights with the promise of a glorious death awaiting them. Now if you're talking about Hizballah, I can agree with that. They definitely made suicide bombing en vogue for a big part of the Middle East. You could argue that Iran has exported the idea of suicide bombing with its theology, but that actually leads me into my next point -

Khomeini-ism (I'm calling it this because velayat-e faqih is too unwieldy) is unlikely to be the dominant Islamist ideology in the future. There are two reasons for this: the first is that even Shia theologians reject his interpretation of Shiism as being consistent with the Shariah. This occurred both during his lifetime and after his death. For instance, here is Grand Ayatollah Sistani's view on Khomeini-ism
Question: What is Grand Ayatollah Sistani's opinion about Wilayat-e Faqih (governance of jurist)?
Answer: Every jurisprudent (Faqih) has wilayah (guardianship) over non-litigious affairs. Non-litigious affairs are called "al-omour al-hesbiah". As for general affairs to which social order is linked, wilayah of a Faqih and enforcement of wilayah depend on certain conditions one of which is popularity of Faqih among majority of momeneen.
This is one of the reasons why Iran has not been able to export the revolution beyond Lebanon.

The second reason is that the Qutb-ist interpretation is much, much stronger these days. Why would predominantly-Sunni groups adopt a Shia Islamist ideology when they have a perfectly good one in the writings of Qutb? Or Hassan al-Banna? Global jihadism already has precedents to look to, and realistically they don't include Khomeini.

This is a pretty good article on the topic that addresses both points: Why Are there no Iranian Suicide Bombers? Evolving Islamic Democracy Matters!
If you can get past the Islamic socialism stuff at the end, there's a lot to consider from it.
 
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Etype

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The Basij had a very high rate of suicide attacks in the Iran-Iraq War, in both the human wave variety and suicide bomb flavor.

As far as the encouragement of unity, it will never happen. Yet, Quds Force operatives still push it, and it filters down and out through Hizbollah channels as well.

ETA-
It may be anecdotal, I don't have the facts to back it up- but as far as I know and have heard from other sources; the Basij suicide attacks, mainly against Iraqi tanks at night, are the earliest examples of suicide bombing which would supposedly resort in some form of Islamic heaven.

This filtered down to Hizbollah and the Dawa Party.
 
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Salt USMC

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The Basij had a very high rate of suicide attacks in the Iran-Iraq War, in both the human wave variety and suicide bomb flavor.

As far as the encouragement of unity, it will never happen. Yet, Quds Force operatives still push it, and it filters down and out through Hizbollah channels as well.

ETA-
It may be anecdotal, I don't have the facts to back it up- but as far as I know and have heard from other sources; the Basij suicide attacks, mainly against Iraqi tanks at night, are the earliest examples of suicide bombing which would supposedly resort in some form of Islamic heaven.

This filtered down to Hizbollah and the Dawa Party.
Interesting. I had never heard of this. Most sources talk about the Basij being armed only with their clothes and a little plastic key around their neck. It definitely sounds plausible, though it doesn't sound like it was widely practiced.
 

Etype

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Interesting. I had never heard of this. Most sources talk about the Basij being armed only with their clothes and a little plastic key around their neck. It definitely sounds plausible, though it doesn't sound like it was widely practiced.
I've heard it from old Ba'ath Party members who were part of the SIB in Iraq, and in the book "A Time to Betray."

If you haven't read it, it's definitely worth it. It follows a guy from his childhood his childhood, through the revolution all the way to the late 80s when he left the country. He was member of the IRGC and did everything from attend the overrunning of the US Embassy, to serving on the front in the war with Iraq, to clandestine activities in London and Dubai- all the while serving as a CIA agent. There are also some pretty detailed accounts of his two visits to Evin Prison- pretty demented stuff.
 

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Chopstick

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Can anyone explain to me how John Kerry's actions are not a violation of the Logan act? :rolleyes:

Kerry making quiet play to save Iran deal with foreign leaders: report

Former Secretary of State John Kerry has fielded dozens of private meetings and phone calls in recent months in an effort to preserve the Iran nuclear deal, as President Trump appears poised to withdraw from the pact.
The Boston Globe reported on Friday that Kerry, who helped broker the 2015 nuclear agreement, met with Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif at the United Nations in New York last month to discuss ways to salvage the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) — the formal name for the Iran deal.
He has also met and spoken with a handful of European officials. Last month, he met with German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier, according to the Globe, and spoke by phone with Federica Mogherini, the European Union's top foreign affairs official.
 

ThunderHorse

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Can anyone explain to me how John Kerry's actions are not a violation of the Logan act? :rolleyes:

Kerry making quiet play to save Iran deal with foreign leaders: report
Yeah, I don't get it Kerry quietly seeking to salvage Iran deal he helped craft - The Boston Globe

The Logan Act prohibits US citizens from having private correspondence with a foreign government “with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government . . . in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States.”

Stephen Vladeck, a law professor at the University of Texas, said the law is a red herring — since it’s never been used to prosecute anyone — and almost certainly would not apply to anything Kerry is doing.

“The act only applies to conduct that is designed to ‘defeat the measures of the United States’ or influence the conduct of foreign governments,” Vladeck said. “If all Kerry is doing is working to keep in place something that’s still technically a ‘measure of the United States,’ I don’t see how the statute would apply even if someone was crazy enough to try it.”
 

R.Caerbannog

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So Flynn gets thrown under the bus for 'russian collusion', while Kerry gets to walk away with trying to make a deal with the Iranians... seems legit.
 

Gunz

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Salt USMC

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So Flynn gets thrown under the bus for 'russian collusion', while Kerry gets to walk away with trying to make a deal with the Iranians... seems legit.
Flynn was yoked up for, among other things, lobbying as an unregistered foreign agent, lying to federal investigators, and a few other charges.
 

R.Caerbannog

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Flynn was yoked up for, among other things, lobbying as an unregistered foreign agent, lying to federal investigators, and a few other charges.
Call me provincial, but isn't John Kerry holding unsanctioned talks over a nuclear agreement with the Iranians the same thing as lobbying as an unregistered foreign agent?

As for Flynn, pretty sure he was burnt at the stake by Mueller and his anti-Trump Russian collusion witch hunt (which is funny considering the Clintons/Russian collusion).
 

Salt USMC

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Call me provincial, but isn't John Kerry holding unsanctioned talks over a nuclear agreement with the Iranians the same thing as lobbying as an unregistered foreign agent?

As for Flynn, pretty sure he was burnt at the stake by Mueller and his anti-Trump Russian collusion witch hunt (which is funny considering the Clintons/Russian collusion).
No, it is not. For example, Flynn was paid over half a million dollars by the Turkish government, something he did not disclose until after he was fired, and blocked a military plan to arm the YPG and attack Raqqa. That's significant because Turkey was very much opposed to those two things. To wit, Flynn was literally bribed by a foreign government to slow or halt foreign policy decisions. There was also a rumor that he was involved in a deal to extradite Fetiullah Gulen, but that hasn't been proven yet. But that's all on top of the Russia stuff.

As to the "witch hunt" comment, I'll just say this:
-23 indictments
-5 guilty pleas
 

R.Caerbannog

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No, it is not. For example, Flynn was paid over half a million dollars by the Turkish government, something he did not disclose until after he was fired, and blocked a military plan to arm the YPG and attack Raqqa. That's significant because Turkey was very much opposed to those two things. To wit, Flynn was literally bribed by a foreign government to slow or halt foreign policy decisions. There was also a rumor that he was involved in a deal to extradite Fetiullah Gulen, but that hasn't been proven yet. But that's all on top of the Russia stuff.

As to the "witch hunt" comment, I'll just say this:
-23 indictments
-5 guilty pleas
So does that mean that any of the cash that went into the Clinton foundation from foreign donors was all goodwill and didn't affect any business or policy dealings that were made when Hillary was the SecState, like Uranium One? ;-)

My gripe is that whenever there is graft or wrongdoing in govt, the people affiliated with the Chicago political machine get kid glove treatment from the FBI and investigating/prosecuting officials. John Kerry acting as a private citizen to save the Iran deal (which is garbage) is another example of DNC's overreach and growing public discontent and animosity towards the DNC and their political shenanigans.
 
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