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The Hate Ape

MARSOC
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.357 Sig is a fine round - Underwood Ammunition makes 125 grain JHP (I think bonded) that produce near-identical results as a .357 Magnum. The differences are as fine as frog hair. Throw that in with 13 rounds in a compact frame and you're cooler than cool-breeze-Malone...

I recently purchased a Glock 23 and am purchasing a nice aftermarket barrel to throw into it for the .357 sig conversion. KKM makes really great shit and produce fine results. A lot of people discuss pistol caliber as a deterring factor for recoil but really I would consider frame size and weight the most important factors. My little seven year old girl/4ft terrorist can bang-out a .357 Magnum on a six inch Colt Python - she's not doing the same thing on a snub-nose. Interestingly, I find my little Glock 43 the snappiest pistol I shoot to be included in an arsenal of .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .357 SIG and .45 ACP.

Another interesting idea if you're really into 45s is to get a Glock 21 that can have the same barrel drop-in idea for 10mm.

10mm is a nasty fucking round - do a youtube of 180 grain Speer gold dots in 10mm and you'll be thoroughly in love - looking at a wound-channel radius of almost 2 inches (initial to mid-cavity) is absolutely fucking insane and 17 inches of penetration with what looks-like 120% expansion (some minor fragments came apart and started to cut the gel in different directions).

Hands down the best guy no-longer doing ballistics analysis on Gel composite: TNOutdoors9

the thing most interesting about a 45 is the pressure to get the round off is relatively low pressure, the higher the grain you get however the rougher the "snap" will be in that cartridge in particular - I have oddly noticed that all other calibers perform best and most effective in the lower tier of grain availability

9mm - 124 Grain +P
40 S&W - 165 Grain
.357 Sig - 125 Grain
45 ACP - 230 Grain (this really stands out to me, I don't really understand why it performs better - it just does)
10mm - 180 Grain

Hope it helps,

H/A
 

Gunz

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A lot of people discuss pistol caliber as a deterring factor for recoil but really I would consider frame size and weight the most important factors.

H/A



I agree with you here. Some frames for .357 are just not up to the job, and I would put my Ruger LCR as one as well as some larger frame snubbies; the Ruger Speed Six I carried for some 20 years was similar in frame to @Red Flag 1 's new stainless S&W and hitting anything with .357 was a real challenge. In fact I kept it loaded with .38 at all times.

Speaking of recoil, the craziest thing I've shot in recent years was the S&W 500. Just way too much of a good thing.:rolleyes:
 
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81FO

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Not that it is relavant to the discussion, but .357 Sig, 140 gr. FMJ work on Hogs...

Had my P226, but had the .357 barrel in, and for some reason my .40 S&W barrel wasn't in the case. So stopped at local shop to pick up some FMJ. Heaviest they had was Sellier & Bellot in 140 gr., so thought what the hell...

I will try to dig up the pics of the one I shot with .357 Sig & post here.
 

81FO

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10 mm is an excellent round IMO.

As an aside I have transitioned away from .44 Mag to 10 mm (Sig P220) for a back-up gun when hunting Black Bear.
 

Diamondback 2/2

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No doubt 10mm is an awesome round, like 357 sig, but the reality of it, is that none of the federal government agencies are using it.... I wonder why? Probably the same reason that the FBI has moved to 9mm as a standard issue round.

I can break things down barney style as I have many times before, but the honesty of it all is... That bullshit has been settled and I'm tired of repeating myself. Google your butt off, and read the studies, maybe look at it objectively, without a personal opinion. Maybe listen to the people who actually have a clue, or maybe just load your 5 shot 500S&W and take on that retard with a 15 Rd 9mm and see what happens...

Idk... someone else probably does!:thumbsup:

ETA: I'm not trying to start a debate, just don't understand the caliber debate end of thing's. Belly guns and whatnot.
 
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81FO

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No doubt 10mm is an awesome round, like 357 sig, but the reality of it, is that none of the federal government agencies are using it.... I wonder why? Probably the same reason that the FBI has moved to 9mm as a standard issue round.

I can break things down barney style as I have many times before, but the honesty of it all is... That bullshit has been settled and I'm tired of repeating myself. Google your butt off, and read the studies, maybe look at it objectively, without a personal opinion. Maybe listen to the people who actually have a clue, or maybe just load your 5 shot 500S&W and take on that retard with a 15 Rd 9mm and see what happens...

Idk... someone else probably does!:thumbsup:

ETA: I'm not trying to start a debate, just don't understand the caliber debate end of thing's. Belly guns and whatnot.


@Diamondback 2/2, I too have been both apart of and spectater to the caliber debate. Typically I abstain from the debate, but in this case... the context of my post was in regards to "non-humans".
I agree with what I think your post implies- 9mm being adequate / effective for human threats, due to more rounds carried, better accuracy due to control and supply & price of ammo.

For me I prefer to use the best caliber for the expected application. In an institutional application i.e. LE , Sec. & Mil. , comminality of caliber is necessary for simplicity of logistics. In my little world I select the caliber that fits best for the AO I will be in. Admittedly 9mm & .40 S&W are the two calibers that I utilize or carry the most.

Thing is, keep in mind the context of my two previous posts...

.357 Sig was something I had, as stated, and due to logistical reasons I went with it. Being familiar with the rounds ballistics, etc... I felt it would be adequate for that application and the outcome was satisfactory.

My choice for now carrying a Sig P220 chambered in 10mm is inline with your reasoning, simply put, more rounds. My previous sidearm carried when bear hunting was my Father-in-law's Ruger Redhawk chambered in .44 Mag. With modern loads available today 10mm is a logical choice.

As for 9mm, it is a no go for Bear or Hog.... IMO
 

The Hate Ape

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No doubt 10mm is an awesome round, like 357 sig, but the reality of it, is that none of the federal government agencies are using it.... I wonder why? Probably the same reason that the FBI has moved to 9mm as a standard issue round.

I can break things down barney style as I have many times before, but the honesty of it all is... That bullshit has been settled and I'm tired of repeating myself. Google your butt off, and read the studies, maybe look at it objectively, without a personal opinion. Maybe listen to the people who actually have a clue, or maybe just load your 5 shot 500S&W and take on that retard with a 15 Rd 9mm and see what happens...

Idk... someone else probably does!:thumbsup:

ETA: I'm not trying to start a debate, just don't understand the caliber debate end of thing's. Belly guns and whatnot.


You don't need to break down anything, its not really that complicated of an approach.

Shooter preference, shooter preference.... SHOOTER PREFERENCE.

9mm, 40 S&W, and definitely .357sig will provide a wonderful level of hydrostatic shock to a blood filled target. We can speak on ballistics all day until we're blue in the face and discuss capacity...

Truthfully, between the three options ^ you're looking at either 15 round mags in a Glock 19 or 13 round mags in a Glock 23/32 - really not that much of a difference here. I'm also moving to California so its 10 round mags no matter what...

I'm a speer gold dot type, a Remington golden saber type, a federal HST type and a federal aluminum for training type. That's it... I'm now an underwood ammunition type who like the big dogs mentioned previously, laser IR scans their ammunition for packing discrepancies. I consider the fact that 40 S&W and .357 sig is a very tightly packaged ammunition. Hence why there is no such thing as +P or +P +P ammunition in those calibers due to SAMMI specifications.

Lets get to the meat and potatoes here though.

9mm is by far, a very effective round. Quoting modern day 9mm ammunition versus earlier versions is a night and day difference. There is no doubt in my mind that a near perfect round in 9mm is the Speer Gold Dot +P 124 grain jacketed hollowpoint which produces nothing short of amazing results. I have compared said results to the results of nearly every ammunition type and grain weight in 9mm - the 124 grain +P usually gives the shooter the best initial cavity stretch/blast-radius, followed by 14+ inches of penetration and in speer's case - perfect expansion and weight retention.

.40 S&W however, trumps those results in 165 grain loads using: you guessed it - motherfucking speer gold dot or federal HST (Take your pick).

Wanna know who beat .40 S&W and 9mm types in speer and federal?

.357 SIG in either Underwood Ammunition or Remington Golden Saber @ 125 grains absolutely, positively destroyed those results with 1500+ FPS and 700lbs of force. It fucking wrecked absolute havoc on the same media the others were tested on and was absolutely devastating. 700 fucking lbs of force is 700 fucking lbs of force hombre. What else? .357 Sig shoots flat AF, its case dimensions/shape all but guarantee a perfect feed/chambering and personally, I like the feel shooting it. People that say they can't handle shooting this concern me.

(I did some research and found that I was incorrect in citing that LE Agencies are probably not using Hollow Points - turns out, only the military is fucking stupid AF in this case)

9mm is cheaper to field, a lot cheaper to use for all the quals and reloading is a lot less dangerous to the weapon system than 40 s&w and .357 SIG. Those pressures are really not as forgiving in the later calibers as they are in 9mm, despite all three being near identical PSI, the grainular increase & round setting even at the 100ths of the wrong direction can double the pressure.

Money is the deciding factor - reloading reduces cost for quals and shit, and once that is removed and factory fresh ammo is required for the other two calibers due to risk of damaging pistols and officers they went back to 9mm. Especially now that 9mm can produce "good enough" results.

The law enforcement example is a monetary decision and nothing else homie.
 
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Seishin

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I don't know of any LE department in my entire state that is using ball ammo. In fact, I have never met a LEO that uses ball ammo for duty ammo and I have met a lot of them in 30 years.
 

The Hate Ape

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I don't know of any LE department in my entire state that is using ball ammo. In fact, I have never met a LEO that uses ball ammo for duty ammo and I have met a lot of them in 30 years.

Yeah I just corrected that after fact checking myself. You typed this as I was fixing my shit but I'd suggest you re-read the bottom because I actually made a pretty valid point in place of that.
 

Seishin

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Yeah I just corrected that after fact checking myself. You typed this as I was fixing my shit but I'd suggest you re-read the bottom because I actually made a pretty valid point in place of that.

I can certainly agree with it being a monetary issue. We went from 9mm to .45 to .40 back to 9mm. We have taken the journey and now come back full-circle. Personally, I like my 9mm the best. I can shoot them all equally as good, but, I find myself liking my 9mm best of all. Like you said, personal preference plays a big part in it for personal weapons.
 

The Hate Ape

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I think when its not quite as definitive or astoundingly obvious - any agency is going to go with the cheapest/most-efficient means possible.

You're not equipping 4 dudes, you're equipping up to a few hundred on a city/town budget. If you could reload reliably with .40 S&W or .357 SIG you'd probably see plenty of agencies leaving it as is because frankly - you get a really nice round in .40 S&W and most certainly .357 SIG in modern day ammunition.

9mm ammunition now days will absolutely get the job done. It is definitely a good round to field to the masses and I think most agencies would be silly to try and go for anything else IMHO. The cost efficiency, longevity, and effectiveness all point to the 9mm - if we talk about best ballistics though, you can jerk off to the 9mm all you want BUT

Higher grains functioning at the same speed or better will always rule in favor of the larger round. This is more manageable and functional for a citizen operating on their own budget. It works for them, not for all - and it does make a difference. Shooter preference trumps all.

I have 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 - I shoot 9mm the most but am wonderfully efficient with all my shit. If I'm carrying its my Glock 43 9mm - in my bag is either the .357 SIG or a .45 though.

Guns are quite literally, all over my house.

Anyone that argues for magazine capacity however over two rounds clearly forgot the concept of tac-reloads or the fact that a battle weapon will always be a rifle. Which are also, quite literally, all over my house.
 
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Seishin

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I think a lot of people find it easier to claim that a larger caliber or more rounds is the key because of less-than-stellar shooting ability.

Truth be told, it's all about "shot placement." I have worked as many homicides from small caliber weapons as I have the larger.

SHOT PLACEMENT is the key! :sneaky:
 

Diamondback 2/2

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You don't need to break down anything, its not really that complicated of an approach.

Shooter preference, shooter preference.... SHOOTER PREFERENCE.

9mm, 40 S&W, and definitely .357sig will provide a wonderful level of hydrostatic shock to a blood filled target. We can speak on ballistics all day until we're blue in the face and discuss capacity...

Truthfully, between the three options ^ you're looking at either 15 round mags in a Glock 19 or 13 round mags in a Glock 23/32 - really not that much of a difference here. I'm also moving to California so its 10 round mags no matter what...

I'm a speer gold dot type, a Remington golden saber type, a federal HST type and a federal aluminum for training type. That's it... I'm now an underwood ammunition type who like the big dogs mentioned previously, laser IR scans their ammunition for packing discrepancies. I consider the fact that 40 S&W and .357 sig is a very tightly packaged ammunition. Hence why there is no such thing as +P or +P +P ammunition in those calibers due to SAMMI specifications.

Lets get to the meat and potatoes here though.

9mm is by far, a very effective round. Quoting modern day 9mm ammunition versus earlier versions is a night and day difference. There is no doubt in my mind that a near perfect round in 9mm is the Speer Gold Dot +P 124 grain jacketed hollowpoint which produces nothing short of amazing results. I have compared said results to the results of nearly every ammunition type and grain weight in 9mm - the 124 grain +P usually gives the shooter the best initial cavity stretch/blast-radius, followed by 14+ inches of penetration and in speer's case - perfect expansion and weight retention.

.40 S&W however, trumps those results in 165 grain loads using: you guessed it - motherfucking speer gold dot or federal HST (Take your pick).

Wanna know who beat .40 S&W and 9mm types in speer and federal?

.357 SIG in either Underwood Ammunition or Remington Golden Saber @ 125 grains absolutely, positively destroyed those results with 1500+ FPS and 700lbs of force. It fucking wrecked absolute havoc on the same media the others were tested on and was absolutely devastating. 700 fucking lbs of force is 700 fucking lbs of force hombre. What else? .357 Sig shoots flat AF, its case dimensions/shape all but guarantee a perfect feed/chambering and personally, I like the feel shooting it. People that say they can't handle shooting this concern me.

(I did some research and found that I was incorrect in citing that LE Agencies are probably not using Hollow Points - turns out, only the military is fucking stupid AF in this case)

9mm is cheaper to field, a lot cheaper to use for all the quals and reloading is a lot less dangerous to the weapon system than 40 s&w and .357 SIG. Those pressures are really not as forgiving in the later calibers as they are in 9mm, despite all three being near identical PSI, the grainular increase & round setting even at the 100ths of the wrong direction can double the pressure.

Money is the deciding factor - reloading reduces cost for quals and shit, and once that is removed and factory fresh ammo is required for the other two calibers due to risk of damaging pistols and officers they went back to 9mm. Especially now that 9mm can produce "good enough" results.

The law enforcement example is a monetary decision and nothing else homie.

Not going to debate it with you as I said I've been here and done that too many times. Several studies have proven that there is virtually no difference between modern (i.e. modern JHP's such HST, Winchester bonded and Speer Gold Dot) pistol calibers.

FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division ⋆ LooseRounds.com

So no, the reason for LE going back to 9mm is not based on saving money alone. It's actually based on science and engineering, and the ability of to control recoil, etc, etc, etc, and guess what, very little cost difference in modern defensive/duty ammunition when it comes to LE.

Absolutely, personal preferences! If you want more recoil with the same internal balistic effects, by all means go for it.

Oh and from the "experts" just in case you thought I was just full of shit...

M4C Newsletter & Larry Vickers: .45 vs 9mm; The debate is over

Anyways, if your going to argue with science, the FBI studies, and some of the most well know trainers/firearms expert's in the industry...well then I've got nothing else to say.

Sorry to hear you're going to be dealing with California and their nutty ass laws over there. Sucks...
 
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The Hate Ape

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I read that article and the other, seems logical. A good takeaway here that I am gathering is that if it's not over 2000 FPS then it isn't worth arguing over - having never shot anything with a handgun besides a dog (Afghanistan) I was pretty convinced on caliber takeaway's through ballistics gel testing. It would seem that such a coned and narrow perspective ignored what some of the trauma surgeons remarked about cavity wound channels - these days they all look the same.

At that point logic would really argue for the 9mm:

Shot placement, capacity, and successive shots all favor the 9mm with none of the disadvantages of the other calibers.

Good resources, cool thread. Glad I read it.

H/A
 
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Gunz

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I look at 9mm as the default round, a good all around caliber suitable for most LE purposes and a sensible round for EDC. Personally, my EDC is a Springfield Armory Milspec 1911, but that's personal preference and not based on studies or opinions. The bottom line is, I'm fucking good with the 1911 so that's what I'm gonna use.
 

policemedic

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I always say shoot the biggest gun you can shoot well and accurately. I used to carry a H&K HK45 at work, but policy changed and we issued Glock 17s. We have the option to carry any other Glock we like (might go for the 34 for the sight radius).

I don't feel undergunned with the 9mm. If I do my part, the round will do its job. And I like shooting free ammo.

That said, I still prefer a 1911 off-duty for a combination of big hole, slim package and excellent trigger.
 
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