S/S shortage in the Marines....

Ooh-Rah

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#2
Not being a sniper, I have no comment on whether it is good or bad idea to break the training up. But there were some interesting points made that I think are worth highlighting as to "why" there might be a shortage.

- One challenge the Marine Corps faces in filling out Scout Sniper platoons is that many of the Marines completing the course are nearing the end of their first term of enlistment.

- When operations wind down and those commanders <who value the Sniper role> move on, they leave a vacuum in institutional knowledge about how best to use scout snipers.

- The scout sniper community itself also sees a very high rate of turnover because once Marines become staff sergeants, their primary MOS becomes 0369 – Infantry Unit Leader – and that means they will be sent to whichever unit the Marine Corps deems necessary, Wojcik said.

- Without any career progression in their community, the only way scout snipers can keep doing their jobs is by becoming reconnaissance Marines, he said.


Okay, here is where I risk talking out of my ass, but wow.

All that time/energy/money spent to turn a Marine into a Sniper and he either goes Recon and continues in that role, or...he's done once he hits Staff Sgt?

Why would you not send your most experienced NCO's to go run the Sniper School?
 

Teufel

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#3
The sniper community is broken. The Marine Corps simply does not produce enough snipers. Right now we manage the inventory of snipers at the battalion level. They recruit, train, and manage their sniper platoons. They also send their Marines to sniper school and lose them for the duration of the course.

I have been pushing to get snipers a primary MOS. This way Marine Corps can recruit guys off the street and push them through sniper school so the battalions don't have to worry about it. Marine Corps recruiting command can also adjust recruiting to offset school attrition. Infantrymen, and Recon Marines, can still attend the school to gain the sniper MOS as a primary or secondary.
 

Raksasa Kotor

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#4
Scout Sniper being a secondary MOS - and all of the career management issues that arise from that - contributed greatly to my decision to leave after one enlistment and serve elsewhere.

In the late 90's losing guys to 0369 billets was the least of our concern as most didn't get to stay in the community even that long. We were losing guys as E5's to recruiting or drill instructor duty, most of whom were returned to the infantry companies instead of coming back to a STA platoon. Faced with that career path, most of us voted with our feet and EAS'd.
 

Teufel

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#5
Scout Sniper being a secondary MOS - and all of the career management issues that arise from that - contributed greatly to my decision to leave after one enlistment and serve elsewhere.

In the late 90's losing guys to 0369 billets was the least of our concern as most didn't get to stay in the community even that long. We were losing guys as E5's to recruiting or drill instructor duty, most of whom were returned to the infantry companies instead of coming back to a STA platoon. Faced with that career path, most of us voted with our feet and EAS'd.
The sniper community lacks advocacy. There is no officer corps to speak of and there are no MGySgt snipers, aside from a handful of infantry Master Guns who served as a sniper when they were a sergeant.
 

Ooh-Rah

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#6
The sniper community lacks advocacy. There is no officer corps to speak of and there are no MGySgt snipers, aside from a handful of infantry Master Guns who served as a sniper when they were a sergeant.
Sir, is the Army set up the same way?
 

AWP

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#7
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#8
The Army is less set up than the Marine Corps. Other than a skill identifier, there is no system in place. Even in SF,a guy is sniper, but that doesn't mean that's what he is doing regularly, outside of the "CIFS"

ETA: I kinda hope someone says something about opsec
 

AWP

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#9
ETA: I kinda hope someone says something about opsec
OPSEC
(1) As defined in Department of Defense (DOD) OPSEC Program (Department of Defense Directive(DoDD) 5205.02E), OPSEC is a process of identifying critical information and subsequently analyzing friendly actions attendant to military operations, as well as other activities to:
(a) Identify those actions that can be observed by an adversary intelligence system.
(b) Determine indicators and vulnerabilities that adversary intelligence systems might be able to obtain. Data that could be interpreted or pieced together to derive critical information that over time could be useful to adversaries and represent an unacceptable risk.
(c) Select and execute countermeasures that eliminate or reduce risk to a level acceptable by the commander.
(2) OPSEC protects Sensitive and/or Critical Information (S/CI) from adversary observation and collection in ways that traditional security cannot. While programs such as Information Assurance (IA) protect classified information, they cannot prevent all indicators of critical information, especially unclassified indicators, from being revealed.
(3) In concise terms, the OPSEC process identifies the critical information of military plans, operations, and supporting activities, as well as the indicators that reveal it. Once identified, measures must eliminate, reduce, or conceal those indicators. During the process, a determination must be developed for when the information may cease to be critical in the lifespan of an organization’s specific operation.
b. Critical Information
(1) Critical information is defined as information important to the successful achievement of United States (U.S.) objectives and missions, which may be of use to an adversary of the U.S.
(2) Critical information consists of specific facts about friendly Capabilities, Activities, Limitations (includes vulnerabilities), and Intentions (CALI) needed by adversaries for them to plan and act effectively to degrade friendly mission accomplishment.
(3) Critical information is information vital to a mission. If an adversary obtains it, correctly analyzes it, and acts upon it, the compromise could prevent or seriously degrade mission success. The goal is to deny our adversaries access to any critical information.
(4) Critical information is primarily unclassified, but can be classified depending on the organization, activity, or mission. Critical information that is classified requires OPSEC measures for additional protection because unclassified indicators can reveal it. Critical information that is unclassified especially requires OPSEC measures because it is not protected by the requirements provided to classified information.
c. Critical Information List (CIL) Is a consolidated list of a unit or organization’s critical information. Every organization’s OPSEC Officer must create a CIL specific for their organization In Accordance With (IAW) Army Regulation (AR) OPSEC (AR 530-1).
d. Sensitive Information and Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI) requires protection from disclosure that could cause a compromise or constitute a threat to national security, an Army organization, activity, Family Member, Department of the Army (DA) Civilian, or DoD contractor. See DOD Manual 5200.01, Volume 4.
(2) For S/CI that has been compromised and is available in open sources, the public domain should not be highlighted or referenced publicly outside of intra-governmental or authorized official communications, because these actions provide further unnecessary exposure of the compromised information. Personnel should not respond to queries to deny or confirm the validity of sensitive information that has been compromised or released to the public. Notify your organization’s OPSEC officer and security manager of all OPSEC compromises.
 
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#10
OPSEC
(1) As defined in Department of Defense (DOD) OPSEC Program (Department of Defense Directive(DoDD) 5205.02E), OPSEC is a process of identifying critical information and subsequently analyzing friendly actions attendant to military operations, as well as other activities to:
(a) Identify those actions that can be observed by an adversary intelligence system.
(b) Determine indicators and vulnerabilities that adversary intelligence systems might be able to obtain. Data that could be interpreted or pieced together to derive critical information that over time could be useful to adversaries and represent an unacceptable risk.
(c) Select and execute countermeasures that eliminate or reduce risk to a level acceptable by the commander.
(2) OPSEC protects Sensitive and/or Critical Information (S/CI) from adversary observation and collection in ways that traditional security cannot. While programs such as Information Assurance (IA) protect classified information, they cannot prevent all indicators of critical information, especially unclassified indicators, from being revealed.
(3) In concise terms, the OPSEC process identifies the critical information of military plans, operations, and supporting activities, as well as the indicators that reveal it. Once identified, measures must eliminate, reduce, or conceal those indicators. During the process, a determination must be developed for when the information may cease to be critical in the lifespan of an organization’s specific operation.
b. Critical Information
(1) Critical information is defined as information important to the successful achievement of United States (U.S.) objectives and missions, which may be of use to an adversary of the U.S.
(2) Critical information consists of specific facts about friendly Capabilities, Activities, Limitations (includes vulnerabilities), and Intentions (CALI) needed by adversaries for them to plan and act effectively to degrade friendly mission accomplishment.
(3) Critical information is information vital to a mission. If an adversary obtains it, correctly analyzes it, and acts upon it, the compromise could prevent or seriously degrade mission success. The goal is to deny our adversaries access to any critical information.
(4) Critical information is primarily unclassified, but can be classified depending on the organization, activity, or mission. Critical information that is classified requires OPSEC measures for additional protection because unclassified indicators can reveal it. Critical information that is unclassified especially requires OPSEC measures because it is not protected by the requirements provided to classified information.
c. Critical Information List (CIL) Is a consolidated list of a unit or organization’s critical information. Every organization’s OPSEC Officer must create a CIL specific for their organization In Accordance With (IAW) Army Regulation (AR) OPSEC (AR 530-1).
d. Sensitive Information and Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI) requires protection from disclosure that could cause a compromise or constitute a threat to national security, an Army organization, activity, Family Member, Department of the Army (DA) Civilian, or DoD contractor. See DOD Manual 5200.01, Volume 4.
(2) For S/CI that has been compromised and is available in open sources, the public domain should not be highlighted or referenced publicly outside of intra-governmental or authorized official communications, because these actions provide further unnecessary exposure of the compromised information. Personnel should not respond to queries to deny or confirm the validity of sensitive information that has been compromised or released to the public. Notify your organization’s OPSEC officer and security manager of all OPSEC compromises.
TLDR
 

Ocoka

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#13
Back in the day Marine S/S were called "dingers" and the idea of a sniper platoon at regiment with a sniper squad to each battalion was considered pretty fucking hare-brained by senior infantry O's :wall:...probably because they didn't really know what to do with them then. I'm talking about '65-'66. In fact some of the early S/S units that went to VN had only been issued M14s and their O's and NCOs had to scrounge around Oki for Japanese glass and mounts.

OJT might be a good idea. Some S/S platoons in my war went through their entire scout-sniper training in Vietnam. Walt Sides, one of the founders of the Rolling Thunder motorcycle runs, trained a platoon of 40 scout-snipers in VN, The Rogues. 8-)
 
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Grunt

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#14
I've always found it odd that a military branch such as the Marine Corps who puts so much emphasis on S/S never saw fit to allow them to have their own MOS. There are times where we needed to go beyond the "Every Marine is a Rifleman" motto.
 
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Teufel

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#15
I've always found it odd that a military branch such as the Marine Corps who puts so much emphasis on S/S never saw fit to allow them to have their own MOS. There are times where we needed to go beyond the "Every Marine is a Rifleman" motto.
The problem is that a sniper platoon is the largest formation the sniper community has. There are no sniper companies or battalions. That means a snipers career would end at E7. Currently it's a primary MOS until E6
 

Grunt

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#16
The problem is that a sniper platoon is the largest formation the sniper community has. There are no sniper companies or battalions. That means a snipers career would end at E7. Currently it's a primary MOS until E6
Ah...ok! Thanks, now I understand it. It's sad to think that those years of experience simply "stop" once that rank is reached rather than called upon to keep the younger guys going strong. If, that isn't being done in some fashion now.
 

Teufel

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Ah...ok! Thanks, now I understand it. It's sad to think that those years of experience simply "stop" once that rank is reached rather than called upon to keep the younger guys going strong. If, that isn't being done in some fashion now.
It remains a secondary MOS but the only SNCO sniper jobs are platoon sergeants and instructor.
 

SgtUSMC8541

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#18
I'm not a fan of the overall plan at all..... There is a reason why the school is a tough as it is. I am glad they are finally making it a Primary MOS, but I really feel that doing that alone will make a big impact. Right now, Marines who graduate the school, find themselves back in the Fleet in one to two years... Make it a Primary MOS, and you will find those same Marines filling those billets for 3 to 4 more years... maybe more if they make it through as a Lance Criminal.
 

Ocoka

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I'm not a fan of the overall plan at all..... There is a reason why the school is a tough as it is. I am glad they are finally making it a Primary MOS, but I really feel that doing that alone will make a big impact. Right now, Marines who graduate the school, find themselves back in the Fleet in one to two years... Make it a Primary MOS, and you will find those same Marines filling those billets for 3 to 4 more years... maybe more if they make it through as a Lance Criminal.

There's no sense letting all that hard-earned training to go to waste after a few years.

The Corps has had a thing about reabsorbing highly-skilled specialized individuals/units back into the Fleet so their skills "rub off" on the rifle squads. That's not always a good thing.
 

AWP

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#20
There's no sense letting all that hard-earned training to go to waste after a few years.

The Corps has had a thing about reabsorbing highly-skilled specialized individuals/units back into the Fleet so their skills "rub off" on the rifle squads. That's not always a good thing.
The Army had the Abrams Charter for the Ranger Regiment. The intent was those soldiers would return to Big Army and spread their skills around. Great, sounds wonderful and all, but what's the shelf life on those skills? Some stud fresh from a S/S platoon passes on his info but isn't shooting often and I'll guess that stalking isn't a skill set used in a line platoon, so how much does the Corps benefit from sending them back to the fleet?
 
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