The Collapse of Afghanistan Thread

AWP

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#1
The subject line says it all.

Let's kick things off from Kunduz.

Taliban attack Afghan city of Kunduz, free inmates - CNN.com

(CNN)—The Afghan provincial capital of Kunduz has largely fallen into "the hand of enemies," Afghanistan's Interior Ministry spokesman Sediq Sediqqi said late Monday.
This is significant not only because of the city, but because it is an area once controlled by Rashid Dostum. Who is that? An Afghan Vice President. Dostum has a history of betrayal but I don't know if that played a role in today's assault (probably not, but this is Afghanistan).

He was America’s man in Afghanistan. Then things went sour. Now Abdurrashid Dostum may be back.

Kunduz and Dostum have some history which also provides a link to the PK/ Taliban connection...a connection reported as early as Nov. 2001 (let that date sink in for a moment. That isn't a typo).

The ‘airlift of evil’

The Getaway - The New Yorker

My generation swore there would never be another Vietnam and touted Desert Storm as evidence we vanquished those ghosts and put VN in our rearview mirror.

We spoke too soon.
 

DA SWO

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#2
The subject line says it all.

Let's kick things off from Kunduz.

Taliban attack Afghan city of Kunduz, free inmates - CNN.com



This is significant not only because of the city, but because it is an area once controlled by Rashid Dostum. Who is that? An Afghan Vice President. Dostum has a history of betrayal but I don't know if that played a role in today's assault (probably not, but this is Afghanistan).

He was America’s man in Afghanistan. Then things went sour. Now Abdurrashid Dostum may be back.

Kunduz and Dostum have some history which also provides a link to the PK/ Taliban connection...a connection reported as early as Nov. 2001 (let that date sink in for a moment. That isn't a typo).

The ‘airlift of evil’

The Getaway - The New Yorker

My generation swore there would never be another Vietnam and touted Desert Storm as evidence we vanquished those ghosts and put VN in our rearview mirror.

We spoke too soon.
Nah, let's blame the generation after ours.:D
 

AWP

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#4
Several news outlets are reporting the GIRoA has retaken Kunduz. The good news? Combat operations ended last December. Oh, wait...they didn't? But the President said they did!!!!!!

U.S. troops dispatched to Kunduz to help Afghan forces

KABUL — American Special Operations troops and on-the-ground military advisers from the NATO coalition joined Afghan forces trying to retake the northern city of Kunduz from Taliban militants Wednesday, and some came under fire as the effort initially made few gains, officials said.
Taliban widen offensive as Nato special forces join fight for Kunduz

Nato special forces have joined Afghan troops in the increasingly desperate battle for Kunduz, as one of the last two government outposts in the strategic northern city surrendered to the Taliban.
 

Florida173

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#5

AWP

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#10
Even if it came from Alex Jones or some other tinfoil worshipping troll it has merit. Obama wants to take credit for pulling out of Iraq (while ignoring the failed SOFA and Bush's work towards that end) and then ending combat operations in Afghanistan (another ridiculous notion), but every day we're dropping munitions in those countries. There are days where A-stan has more airframes over it than Iraq.
 

AWP

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#11
This awful for so many reasons - addmittedly I do not know a lot about Doctor's Without Borders, but are they stationary and in postion to be known, or did they just happen to be somewhere they should not have been?

U.S. airstrike 'kills at least nine Doctors Without Borders staff'
I moved your post since this deals with Afghanistan and not Iraq/ ISIS.

To try and answer your question, both Fox and CNN only say the "coordinates" were given to the "warring parties." DWB also says it told Washington about the strikes but they continued for more than 30 minutes after notification.

1. Neither story, nor DWB, state the hospital was marked. Unless I'm mistaken a hospital is supposed to be marked with a red cross and/ or crescent. It can say it gave out coordinates, but to who because giving them to Washington is the same as posting them on a random Craigslist page.
2. Communicating with Washington...please. Even IF they found the right office and the right person, just getting that info to Afghanistan would take some time. The notion that you can tell someone in the gov't and they can call anywhere and pass along that info is nonsense. If that phone call doesn't go to the right office then forget even making it to Afghanistan within 30 minutes.

Even if the coordinates were known were they transmitted to Bagram AND to the Task Force? Was the hospital clearly marked (it doesn't sound like it)? I hate to say it, but based on FOX and CNN I'd say DWB should take a small amount of the blame and the rest is "fog of war."
 

Red Flag 1

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#12
I am so very sorry to learn of this. 30 minutes warning works if you are able to stop what you are doing. Surgical procedures, from the time of induction of anesthesia, to the last skin staple going on is roughly 2 hours. Some take longer, and some are shorter. When I got called in for a case, I told my wife it would be a couple of hours before I'd get back. After the warning to evacuate, it is hard to know what to do; stay, or leave your patient. My call would have been to close up ASAP, and evacuate the patient and the team together. From what I've been able put together, it sounds like fighting in the area of the hospital has been going on for a week or so. The enemy is known to hide, and fire from anywhere, including hospitals and mosques . In hind sight, evacuation should have been considered a few days ago. May those who have lost their lives, Rest In God's Own Peace. Thoughts and prayers out to all touched by this tragic event.
 

DA SWO

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#13
I moved your post since this deals with Afghanistan and not Iraq/ ISIS.

To try and answer your question, both Fox and CNN only say the "coordinates" were given to the "warring parties." DWB also says it told Washington about the strikes but they continued for more than 30 minutes after notification.

1. Neither story, nor DWB, state the hospital was marked. Unless I'm mistaken a hospital is supposed to be marked with a red cross and/ or crescent. It can say it gave out coordinates, but to who because giving them to Washington is the same as posting them on a random Craigslist page.
2. Communicating with Washington...please. Even IF they found the right office and the right person, just getting that info to Afghanistan would take some time. The notion that you can tell someone in the gov't and they can call anywhere and pass along that info is nonsense. If that phone call doesn't go to the right office then forget even making it to Afghanistan within 30 minutes.

Even if the coordinates were known were they transmitted to Bagram AND to the Task Force? Was the hospital clearly marked (it doesn't sound like it)? I hate to say it, but based on FOX and CNN I'd say DWB should take a small amount of the blame and the rest is "fog of war."
Even marked, it can not be used for "Military" purposes, i.e. you can't set up a command post, AAA site or barracks for combatants in the hospital.

Doing that can cost you your protected status.

Did DWB make sure A-Q/Taliban fighters were off grounds?
 

Red Flag 1

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#14
Even marked, it can not be used for "Military" purposes, i.e. you can't set up a command post, AAA site or barracks for combatants in the hospital.

Doing that can cost you your protected status.

Did DWB make sure A-Q/Taliban fighters were off grounds?
Yup! With hostilities so near, the call to evacuate/warn was way too late. The media will look for someone to blame, as they shape and spin this event. What a great opening for "investigative reporting". Just who was responsible for telling the DWB/Treatment facility, how much danger they were in? Had there been any thought given to evacuation sites? DWB walking out and telling A-Q/Taliban fighters to clear away from the hospital, probably would have been a joke, and a few rounds lead. War zones are deadly for anyone in them.
 

DA SWO

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#15
Yup! With hostilities so near, the call to evacuate/warn was way too late. The media will look for someone to blame, as they shape and spin this event. What a great opening for "investigative reporting". Just who was responsible for telling the DWB/Treatment facility, how much danger they were in? Had there been any thought given to evacuation sites? DWB walking out and telling A-Q/Taliban fighters to clear away from the hospital, probably would have been a joke, and a few rounds lead. War zones are deadly for anyone in them.
DWB folks tend to be a little idealistic/clueless.

They can assume we won't hit them knowing the TB has set up in the same building.

I won't lose sleep, the fact that the "air raid" lasted another 30 min (per media) tells me they had a pretty high priority target near by.

Derka, derka.
 

Ooh-Rah

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#16
The Generals are circling their wagons and blaming the JTAC - going so far as to publicly accuse them of negligence and not following procdure. Commenting on this would be FAR out of my lane, but I am interested to see what qualifed folks would say about this.

What I will say via comment is this, it is just wrong that a General would say this in public, (via B.S. ananomous sources who cannot be identifed) before a formal investigation has even happened. Then again, maybe one of you guys will tell me why it's not bullshit to do this, but all it does for me is reenforce the idea that most Generals are no better than the rest of the politicians out there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/w...l?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share NYTimes: General Is Said to Think Afghan Hospital Airstrike Broke U.S. Rules
 
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DA SWO

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#18
Imagine that.... a General not following the basic tenets of Military leadership... Share Credit, Accept Blame... fucking politicians, not leaders -- all of them.
They are already talking about a UN conducted War Crimes Tribunal.
No one in their right mind is going to take the blame.
Obama's hit squad (aka DoJ) is involved.
Hopefully it is a non US (read Afghan) JTAC.
 
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