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Training Options

The Hate Ape

MARSOC
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#1
Got forced into an incident the other night that could have gone south really quickly and realized this morning that I haven't done anything to touch up on the perishable skills of putting a bitch on his head. As a teenager I dabbled heavily between Judo, Boxing, and Wrestling -

I'd like to look up some local clubs in my area and find a reputable place to get back up to par. Judo seems like a natural fit for getting a threat to the ground quickly and is my currently numero uno training selection. I'll be moving out to California early nex

MY QUESTION:
I ruled out BJJ as it seems a bit complex with chained-maneuvers that do not really serve the speed and veracity that I'd like to achieve - does anyone agree with this notion? My additional thoughts are that Judo works chokes, strikes, and manipulations (probably less than BJJ but still effective).
 

CDG

Mittens
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#2
Depends on the BJJ gym you attend. Some are more sport jiu jitsu focused. The one I attend includes self-defense work, as well "Jiu Jitsu for MMA" classes that are more relevant to an actual street fight. I would talk to the instructor and let him know what you're looking to get out of it, and see what that gym trains. The other thing I will say about BJJ is that it teaches you what to do once you're on the ground. Takedowns are great, but if you don't know what to do in the scramble that follows you might end up in trouble. Finally, depending on where you are moving in California, you may be able to find a place that trains Combat Jiu Jitsu. The 10th Planet gyms owned by Eddie Bravo are doing this, AFAIK. It's kind of a hybrid where palm strikes are allowed once the fight goes to the ground.
 

The Hate Ape

MARSOC
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#3
Yeah 10th Planet is kind of my initial thought - one of their name brand fighters is PJ Barch who I went to High School with and we stayed in touch a bit. That kid is a fucking MONSTER in the No Gi competition scene - I'll be looking forward to hitting his gym.

When I see BJJ in execution, there's a lot of ground dedication - I see what youre saying about putting in work post-takedown but my initial and layman's response is that I do not appreciate how vulnerable that individual is to other attackers. BLUF is that I'm Judo/Boxing BIAS'd but atleast I'll admit the shit. BJJ looks like a lot of fucking fun though (side note).
 

CDG

Mittens
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#4
I'm not sure what martial art you would use for multiple attackers, but I haven't seen it yet. I mentioned the post takedown work because you initially brought up judo for the takedown speed. Most fights end up on the ground, which is why I think BJJ is such a great tool to have available. If a dude's buddies are watching and thinking about jumping in, you breaking his arm and popping back up to your feet is a pretty strong statement.
 

Kakashi66223

Marine/Army ATC
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#5
@CDG I must have read your mind.

Yes sir. In California I'd be worried more about getting blindsided by a guy in a crowd who I didn't know was in the fight. What ever you pick discipline wise; speed and intensity, and look for that guy.

Krav Maga reminds me of the old MC line training.
 

Teufel

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#6
I'm not sure what martial art you would use for multiple attackers, but I haven't seen it yet. I mentioned the post takedown work because you initially brought up judo for the takedown speed. Most fights end up on the ground, which is why I think BJJ is such a great tool to have available. If a dude's buddies are watching and thinking about jumping in, you breaking his arm and popping back up to your feet is a pretty strong statement.
What martial art works best for multiple opponents? A shotgun. The end.
 

sah2117

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Georgia, USA
#7
I'm not sure what martial art you would use for multiple attackers, but I haven't seen it yet. I mentioned the post takedown work because you initially brought up judo for the takedown speed. Most fights end up on the ground, which is why I think BJJ is such a great tool to have available. If a dude's buddies are watching and thinking about jumping in, you breaking his arm and popping back up to your feet is a pretty strong statement.
Atienza Kali is a good option that trains for defending against multiple attackers. They also train how to attack as part of a group.
 

CDG

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#8
Atienza Kali is a good option that trains for defending against multiple attackers. They also train how to attack as part of a group.
There are plenty of martial arts that claim to be effective against multiple attackers. Real life isn't the movies where the bad guys patiently wait to attack one at a time, and I don't put any stock in people who claim to be able to successfully defend against a true multiple person attack with their ninja moves.
 

leonrazurado

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#9
I train BJJ primarily, and Judo and boxing once or twice a week on top of that. I've never boxed on the street, but I routinely use throws and pins (Judo) and submissions (except chokeholds). From my experiences, you don't need to have perfect takedowns or throws, as speed and violence can more than make up for it. Once I'm on the ground, BJJ reigns supreme, even when opponents try everything in their power to fight back or get up on their feet. Usually, I don't need much past positional control since I'm not trying to cause serious bodily injury.

This is in police work, where my back up is never more than 5 minutes away if I need it, and if I'm walking into a bad situation, I usually have at least one other guy/gal with me.

ETA: all my Judo buddies train BJJ.
 

Salt USMC

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#10
The best investment you can make for fighting multiple opponents is running shoes.

If BJJ isn't your cup of tea, just train double legs all day.
 

sah2117

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#12
There are plenty of martial arts that claim to be effective against multiple attackers. Real life isn't the movies where the bad guys patiently wait to attack one at a time, and I don't put any stock in people who claim to be able to successfully defend against a true multiple person attack with their ninja moves.
Fair enough. I agree that no method is guaranteed to successfully defend against a real world mass attack. However, I do believe that training even against a simulated version of such an attack can be beneficial to your mental and physical state should something like that occur, and could mean the difference between life and death. That side of training shouldn’t be neglected just because the odds aren’t in your favor. Atienza Kali and Krav Maga are the only forms that I’m aware of that train for this and are applicable to a real life scenario.
 

The Hate Ape

MARSOC
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#13
Yeah, I'm not aiming to be Jack Reacher but I appreciate the feedback from everyone. Definitely debunked some of the misconceptions I had over BJJ. @Teufel feel free to be the guy in our group that carries around a shotgun though.
 

Jaygo

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#15
BJJ is great for ONE guy. If you're able to bridge in Judo that's another huge bonus. I've been bouncing for a minute and pepper spray has saved my ass a few times when I've been out numbered. Unless you're going against prior service or law enforcement, chances are they have no exposure to it. Most will puss out once that "oh shit" factor hits them and helps put the odds in your favor.

If your intention isn't to defend someone or an establishment, Salt's advice on running shoes is definitely your best option.
 

The Hate Ape

MARSOC
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#16
I have no problem carrying pepper spray on my key chain just in-case my girlfriend borrows my car...

Kidding; but on a more serious note some of you are a little lost in the discussion. We already know that exiting a situation safely is optimal, as is a grenade in a crowded room of evil-doers. The idea here is to get advice on the training disciplines that best provide a foundation of confidence, effectiveness, and reliability during the application of physical & unarmed violence.

Based on the responses, BJJ reads to be a winner here - one gym owner I spoke with over the weekend hosts a pretty popular location with my unit and includes a fancy discount & unlimited classes. Additionally, all of his classes begin or end with about 15 minutes of Judo disciplines (mostly throws) as I was unaware that BJJ was actually born from a Judo.
 

The Hate Ape

MARSOC
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#18
I don't know, Krav Maga from my layman's perspective seems pretty intense and I doubt there are any legitimate training locations besides in the movie Roadhouse. I feel that the training environment would depend on intensity and borderline real-life so instruction quality might be poor otherwise.

To summarize, I'm confident I would receive better BJJ/Judo & Boxing Instruction than I would in Krav Maga.
 

CDG

Mittens
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#19
I have no problem carrying pepper spray on my key chain just in-case my girlfriend borrows my car...

Kidding; but on a more serious note some of you are a little lost in the discussion. We already know that exiting a situation safely is optimal, as is a grenade in a crowded room of evil-doers. The idea here is to get advice on the training disciplines that best provide a foundation of confidence, effectiveness, and reliability during the application of physical & unarmed violence.

Based on the responses, BJJ reads to be a winner here - one gym owner I spoke with over the weekend hosts a pretty popular location with my unit and includes a fancy discount & unlimited classes. Additionally, all of his classes begin or end with about 15 minutes of Judo disciplines (mostly throws) as I was unaware that BJJ was actually born from a Judo.
Yep. WAY back in the day (19th Century) when Judo was thought to be the supreme form of martial arts, this dude who taught classical jiu jitsu challenged the predominant judo academy to a series of matches. The jiu jitsu fighters won every match by submitting the judo players. So the judo guys invited the jiu jitsu guys to start teaching ground fighting at their academy. Mitsuyo Maeda is the one responsible for bringing jiu jitsu to the Gracies back in the 1920s, and then the Gracies took the ball and are still running with it. Here's a good read on the history of it all.

History of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
 

CDG

Mittens
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#20
I don't know, Krav Maga from my layman's perspective seems pretty intense and I doubt there are any legitimate training locations besides in the movie Roadhouse. I feel that the training environment would depend on intensity and borderline real-life so instruction quality might be poor otherwise.

To summarize, I'm confident I would receive better BJJ/Judo & Boxing Instruction than I would in Krav Maga.
Krav Maga is very hit or miss. If you find a school that is ICCS (Israeli Contact Combat System) certified, then you know you are getting top quality training. Outside of that, who knows. One of the other things I like most about training BJJ is that I can do it 6 days a week and be pretty much ok. Definitely tired, maybe sore hands, etc., but you're not getting the shit beat out of you like if you train striking or judo throws all the time. Injuries still happen of course, but BJJ is more sustainable IMHO.