Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

Florida173

SOF Support
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
1,368
Location
NCR
#5
The link is the right one I think, but doesn't work when clicky.. odd.

Waste of money sending females simply for the fact that it's a combat leadership course. Integration should happen elsewhere first.
 

medicchick

Farking hot weather
Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
801
Location
Nevada
#6
If you type "women go to Ranger school" in the search bar on broken link page it should pop up. Did for me. Fucking yahoo
It's the site here, not Yahoo. SS automatically capitalizes Ranger which makes the URL invalid. Just change the "R" to lowercase and it's good.
 

18echo

Special Forces
Verified SOF
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
31
Location
CA
#8
I dig this quote from the article:
“If a female thinks she’s physically strong enough to get through the school to get the tab, she should be able to go,” said Staff Sgt. Marscha Boydston, a supply specialist in Joint Base Lewis-McChord’s I Corps.
It's not about what you think you can do. It's about what you can demonstrate that you can do.
I have known plenty of joes over the last two decades who thought they could do something that turned out to be not the case.
 

Ranger Psych

Ranger
Verified SOF
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
Messages
3,340
Location
Saving lives one axe swing at a time.
#10
I dig this quote from the article:
It's not about what you think you can do. It's about what you can demonstrate that you can do.
I have known plenty of joes over the last two decades who thought they could do something that turned out to be not the case.
Well, that happens at Ranger school all the time. Large portion of student attrition is during the initial portion of Ranger school... people think they can do what they need to be able to do, and unfortunately they can't do it to standard, or just can't do it at all.
 

CDG

Mittens
Moderator
Joined
Apr 15, 2011
Messages
7,209
Location
Off safe. One away.
#13
The Marine Corps has been abiding the new study and have sent 14 females to the Infantry Officer Course so far, 13 of which failed on the first day. Sounds like a real waste of money, but my bet is on this is not going to work out for the "equal opportunists" at the Pentagon.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...a83ea0-b145-11e3-a49e-76adc9210f19_story.html
The author comes off as whiny and wanting things handed to her, IMO. "I needed more time to prepare", "It's not fair". She knew what the male standards were, no reason she couldn't train to them on her own.
 

Centermass

Ranger
Verified SOF
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,619
Location
Whoville
#15
UNCLAS
SUBJ/ALARACT 221/2014 - FEMALE OBSERVERS/ADVISORS FOR THE UNITED
STATES ARMY MANEUVER CENTER OF EXCELLENCE (MCOE) RANGER COURSE
ASSESSMENT

THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN TRANSMITTED BY US ARMY INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY
AGENCY (USAITA) ON BEHALF OF HEADQUARTERS, US ARMY TRAINING AND
DOCTRINE COMMAND (TRADOC)

SUBJECT: FEMALE OBSERVERS/ADVISORS FOR THE UNITED STATES ARMY
MANEUVER CENTER OF EXCELLENCE (MCOE) RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT
NARR/(U) PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO SEEK ARMY-WIDE SUPPORT OF
FEMALE OBSERVERS/ADVISORS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE MCOE RANGER COURSE
ASSESSMENT (DECISION REGARDING EXECUTION OF ASSESSMENT WILL BE MADE
IN JANUARY 2015).

1. (U) BACKGROUND: AS PART OF THE ARMY SOLDIER 2020 INITIATIVE TO
ENSURE THE BEST-QUALIFIED SOLDIERS HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE IN
ANY POSITION WHERE THEY ARE CAPABLE OF PERFORMING TO STANDARD, THE
MCOE MAY CONDUCT A RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT IN 3RD QTR FY15 (EXACT
DATES TBD).

1.A. (U) MCOE MAY CONDUCT A RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT TO INFORM
FUTURE DECISION MAKING.

1.B. (U) FEMALE VOLUNTEERS WILL BE SELECTED TO SERVE AS
OBSERVERS/ADVISORS DURING THE RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT (EXACT CLASS
TBP).

2. (U) ARMY COMMANDS (ACOMS), ARMY SERVICE COMPONENT COMMANDS
(ASCCS), AND DIRECT REPORTING UNITS (DRUS) WILL CONDUCT A RECRUITING
EFFORT TO IDENTIFY FEMALE VOLUNTEERS TO SERVE AS OBSERVERS/ADVISORS
FOR THE RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT.

3. (U) FEMALE OBSERVERS/ADVISORS WILL ASSIST THE AIRBORNE AND RANGER
TRAINING BRIGADE (ARTB)CADRE IN OBSERVING ALL MAJOR BLOCKS OF
INSTRUCTION AND TRAINING DURING THIS ASSESSMENT. FEMALE
OBSERVERS/ADVISORS WILL NOT SERVE AS RANGER INSTRUCTORS OR TRAIN OR
EVALUATE STUDENTS.

3.A. (U) FEMALE OBSERVER/ADVISOR PREREQUISITES.

3.A.1. (U) - MUST BE A FEMALE SOLDIER OR OFFICER VOLUNTEER

3.A.2. (U) - MOS OR BRANCH IMMATERIAL

3.A.3. (U) - GRADE E6, E7, E8, W2, W3, O2, O3, OR O4

3.A.4. (U) - MEET HEIGHT AND WEIGHT STANDARDS

3.A.5. (U) - MUST HAVE A PHYSICAL PROFILE SERIAL SYSTEM NUMBER
(PULHES) OF 111121 OR RECEIVE A WAIVER FROM THE INFANTRY SCHOOL AND
HAVE NO PHYSICAL LIMITING PROFILE

3.A.6. (U) - MUST MEET STANDARDS OF MEDICAL FITNESS IAW CHAPTER 5, AR
40-501 (RANGER PHYSICAL)

3.B. (U) FEMALE OBSERVER/ADVISOR ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS (NOT
REQUIREMENTS).

3.B.1. (U) FEMALE OBSERVER/ADVISOR VOLUNTEERS WILL BE EVALUATED ON
THEIR ABILITY TO PERFORM RANGER TASKS AND RANGER ASSESSMENT PHASE
REQUIREMENTS, INCLUDING: THE RANGER PHYSICAL ASSESSMENT (49 PUSH-UPS,
59 SIT-UPS, 5-MILE RUN IN 40 MINUTES, AND 6 CHIN-UPS); 12-MILE
FOOTMARCH IN 3 HOURS; THE COMBAT WATER SURVIVAL ASSESSMENT (CWSA),
AND LAND NAVIGATION. THE 12-MILE FOOTMARCH IS CONDUCTED IN THE ARMY
COMBAT UNIFORM, BOOTS, FIGHTING LOAD CARRIER (FLC), PATROL CAP, AND
RUCKSACK WEIGHING A MINIMUM OF 35 LBS (WITHOUT WATER) WHILE CARRYING
INDIVIDUAL WEAPON.

3.B.2. (U) FEMALE VOLUNTEERS WITH DRILL SERGEANT/ADVANCED INDIVIDUAL
TRAINING (AIT) PLATOON SERGEANT EXPERIENCE, COMBAT TRAINING CENTER
OBSERVER/CONTROLLER EXPERIENCE, AND THOSE WHO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY
COMPLETED PHYSICALLY DEMANDING FUNCTIONAL ARMY COURSES ARE HIGHLY
DESIRED.

3.C. (U) APPLICANT PACKETS WILL INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING:

3.C.1. (U) AN UPDATED CURRENT COPY OF THEIR OFFICER RECORD BRIEF
(ORB) OR ENLISTED RECORD BRIEF (ERB)

3.C.2. (U) COPIES OF LAST THREE OER/NCOER

3.C.3. (U) LETTER TO THE ARTB COMMANDER EXPRESSING WHY APPLICANT
WISHES TO SERVE AS AN ARTB OBSERVER/ADVISOR FOR THE ASSESSMENT.
LETTER MAY BE ONE TO TWO PARAGRAPHS AND NOT TO EXCEED ONE PAGE IN
LENGTH.

3.C.4. (U) DA FORM 705 (ARMY PHYSICAL FITNESS TEST SCORECARD)DATED
WITHIN SIX MONTHS OF SUBMISSION OF APPLICATION PACKET.

3.D. (U) FEMALE OBSERVER/ADVISOR SELECTION PROCESS

3.D.1. (U) THE ASSESSMENT WILL OCCUR OVER AN 8-DAY PERIOD (INCLUDES 2
TRAVEL DAYS).

3.D.2. (U) CANDIDATES WILL NOT BE DROPPED FROM THE ASSESSMENT EXCEPT
FOR INJURY OR BY SELF REMOVAL.

3.D.3. (U) CANDIDATES WILL BE ASSESSED ON THEIR ABILITY TO EXECUTE
RANGER TASKS AND RANGER ASSESSMENT PHASE REQUIREMENTS.

3.D.4. (U) UPON COMPLETION OF THE ASSESSMENT THE CANDIDATES WILL
REVIEW THEIR PERFORMANCE WITH SENIOR MEMBERS OF THE ARTB.

3.D.5. (U) ALL CANDIDATES WILL PROVIDE A WRITTEN EXIT AFTER ACTION
REPORT UPON COMPLETION OF THE ASSESSMENT.

3.D.6. (U) EXIT INTERVIEWS WILL BE CONDUCTED WITH ALL CANDIDATES.

3.E. (U) TIMELINE

3.E.1. (U) CANDIDATE PACKETS MUST BE SUBMITTED NLT 10 OCT 14.

3.E.2. (U) CANDIDATES SELECTED WILL BE NOTIFIED ON OR AROUND (O/A) 20
OCT 14.

3.E.3. (U) CANDIDATES WILL TRAVEL TO FORT BENNING O/A 10-18 NOV 14 ON
TEMPORARY DUTY (TDY).

3.E.4. (U) FEMALE SOLDIERS SELECTED AS OBSERVERS/ADVISORS WILL
TRAVEL TO FORT BENNING WITH FOLLOW-ON DUTY AT FORT BENNING, GA;
DAHLONEGA, GA; OR EGLIN AFB, FL. REPORT DATE MAY BE 5 JAN 15, WITH
TDY ENDING O/A 18 SEPT 15.

4. (U) ORDERS AUTHORIZATION AND FUNDING INFORMATION WILL BE
PUBLISHED IN A SUPPLEMENTAL MESSAGE.

5. (U) POINTS OF CONTACT (POCS).

5.A. (U) INITIAL REQUESTS FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WILL BE SENT TO
USAIS (USARMY.BENNING.TRADOC.MBX.OCOIWEB@MAIL.MIL) OR BY VOICE
MESSAGE AT (706) 545-0458; DSN 835-0458

5.B. (U) INDIVIDUAL POCS (FOR PACKET SUBMISSION, FUNDING, AND
ORDERS)
WILL BE IDENTIFIED IN SUPPLEMENTAL MESSAGES.

6. (U) EXPIRATION DATE OF THIS MESSAGE IS 365 DAYS FROM ISSUANCE
DATE.
BT
#2045
 

Centermass

Ranger
Verified SOF
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,619
Location
Whoville
#16
ALARACT RELEASE AUTHORITY WASHINGTON DC

PAAUZYUW RUJAAAA2055 2542234-UUUU--RUJAAAA.
ZNR UUUUU ZUI RUEWMCF1570 2542234
P 112045Z SEP 14
FM ALARACT RELEASE AUTHORITY WASHINGTON DC//CMOC//
TO ALARACT
INFO RUEAUSA/ALARACT RELEASE AUTHORITY WASHINGTON DC
BT
UNCLAS

SUBJ/ALARACT 222/2014 - FEMALE STUDENTS FOR THE UNITED STATES ARMY
MANEUVER CENTER OF EXCELLENCE (MCOE) RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT
THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN TRANSMITTED BY US ARMY INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY
AGENCY (USAITA) ON BEHALF OF HEADQUARTERS, US ARMY TRAINING AND
DOCTRINE COMMAND (TRADOC)

SUBJECT: FEMALE STUDENTS FOR THE UNITED STATES ARMY MANEUVER CENTER
OF EXCELLENCE (MCOE) RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT
NARR/(U) PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO SEEK ARMY-WIDE SUPPORT OF
ELIGIBLE FEMALE STUDENTS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE MCOE RANGER COURSE
ASSESSMENT(DECISION REGARDING EXECUTION OF ASSESSMENT WILL BE MADE IN
JANUARY 2015).

1. (U) BACKGROUND: AS PART OF THE ARMY SOLDIER 2020 INITIATIVE TO
ENSURE THE BEST-QUALIFIED SOLDIERS HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE IN
ANY POSITION WHERE THEY ARE CAPABLE OF PERFORMING TO STANDARD, THE
MCOE MAY CONDUCT A RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT IN 3RD QTR FY15 (EXACT
DATES TBD).

1.A. (U) MCOE MAY CONDUCT A RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT TO INFORM FUTURE
DECISION MAKING.

1.B. (U) FEMALE VOLUNTEERS SELECTED TO ATTEND THE RANGER COURSE
ASSESSMENT (EXACT CLASS TBP) WILL BE REQUIRED TO MEET ALL COURSE
PERFORMANCE STANDARDS AND TRAINING REQUIREMENTS.

2. (U) ARMY COMMANDS (ACOMS), ARMY SERVICE COMPONENT COMMANDS
(ASCCS), AND DIRECT REPORTING UNITS (DRUS) WILL CONDUCT A RECRUITING
EFFORT TO IDENTIFY FEMALE VOLUNTEERS FOR THE RANGER COURSE
ASSESSMENT.

3. (U) PREREQUISITES FOR ENTRY INTO THE RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT CAN
BE FOUND IN THE ARMY TRAINING REQUIREMENTS AND RESERVATION SYSTEM
(ATRRS). ADDITIONAL STUDENT INFORMATION AND REPORTING REQUIREMENTS
CAN BE FOUND ON THE AIRBORNE AND RANGER TRAINING BRIGADE (ARTB) WEB-
SITE UNDER THE STUDENT INFORMATION LINK
(HTTP://WWW.BENNING.ARMY.MIL/INFANTRY/RTB/)

3.A. (U) ADMINISTRATIVE RESTRICTIONS PROHIBITING WOMEN FROM ATTENDING
THE RANGER COURSE ARE SUSPENDED FOR SELECTION INTO THE RANGER COURSE
ASSESSMENT.

3.A.1. (U) THE RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT IS OPEN TO ALL FEMALE
VOLUNTEERS IN THE GRADES E4-O4.

3.A.2. (U) FEMALE SOLDIERS MUST BE VOLUNTEERS. FEMALE SOLDIERS WILL
NOT BE DIRECTED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT.

3.A.3. (U) ALL FEMALE VOLUNTEERS MUST HAVE AN END TERM OF SERVICE
(ETS) NO EARLIER THAN 01 OCTOBER 2016.

3.A.4. (U) FEMALE VOLUNTEERS MUST COMPLETE AN APPROVED RANGER
PHYSICAL EXAMINATION (DD FORM 2807-1, DD FORM 2807-2, AND DD FORM
2808) AND AUDIOGRAM (DD FORM 2216) PERFORMED IAW AR 40-501, CHAPTER
8. FEMALE VOLUNTEERS MUST PROVIDE COPIES OF ALL LABORATORY OR
SPECIALIZED CONSULTATIONS SIGNED BY A DOCTOR AND DENTIST, DATED
WITHIN 18 MONTHS OF COURSE START DATE. VOLUNTEERS MUST MEET MEDICAL
FITNESS STANDARDS IAW AR 40-501, CHAPTERS 2, 5-3, AND 5-4.
ADDITIONALLY, VOLUNTEERS MUST PROVIDE A CURRENT COPY OF MEDPROS THAT
INCLUDES A ROUTINE ADULT + H1N1 MODULE AND A ROUTINE IMMUNIZATION
SUMMARY.

3.A.5. (U) FEMALE VOLUNTEERS WILL BE ADMINISTERED A PREGNANCY TEST
DURING IN-PROCESSING. POSITIVE TESTS WILL RESULT IN DISENROLLMENT.

3.A.6. (U) ALL FEMALE VOLUNTEERS WILL BE REQUIRED TO ATTEND THE US
ARMY NATIONAL GUARD, RANGER TRAINING AND ASSESSMENT COURSE (RTAC)
CONDUCTED AT FT BENNING, COLUMBUS, GA PRIOR TO ENROLLMENT IN THE
RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT CLASS.

3.A.7. (U) ALL RTAC COURSE (ATRRS) RESERVATIONS, IN SUPPORT OF THE
RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT, WILL BE COORDINATED THROUGH THE US ARMY
INFANTRY SCHOOL (USAIS).

3.A.8. (U) ALL FEMALE VOLUNTEERS WILL HAVE A COPY OF THEIR COMMANDERS
VALIDATION LETTER FOR IN-PROCESSING. IN-PROCESSING PREREQUISITE
INFORMATION, INCLUDING AN EXAMPLE COMMANDERS VALIDATION LETTER, CAN
BE FOUND ON THE ARTB WEB SITE UNDER THE STUDENT INFORMATION LINK
(HTTP://WWW.BENNING.ARMY.MIL/INFANTRY/RTB/).

3.A.9. (U) THE COMMANDERS VALIDATION LETTER WILL CERTIFY ALL
PARTICIPANTS ARE PROFICIENT ON RANGER TASKS AND RANGER ASSESSMENT
PHASE REQUIREMENTS, INCLUDING: THE RANGER PHYSICAL ASSESSMENT (49
PUSH-UPS, 59 SIT-UPS, 5-MILE RUN IN 40 MINUTES, and 6 CHIN-UPS); 12-
MILE FOOTMARCH IN 3 HOURS; THE COMBAT WATER SURVIVAL ASSESSMENT
(CWSA); AND LAND NAVIGATION. THE 12-MILE FOOTMARCH IS CONDUCTED IN
THE ARMY COMBAT UNIFORM, BOOTS, FIGHTING LOAD CARRIER (FLC), PATROL
CAP, AND RUCKSACK WEIGHING A MINIMUM OF 35 LBS (WITHOUT WATER) WHILE
CARRYING AN INDIVIDUAL WEAPON.

3.B. (U) VOLUNTEER IDENTIFICATION AND ENROLLMENT TIMELINE.

3.B.1. (U) UNITS WILL PROVIDE USAIS THE NUMBER OF POTENTIAL
ASSESSMENT VOLUNTEERS NLT 3 NOV 14.

3.B.2. (U) UNITS WILL PROVIDE USAIS STANDARD NAME LINE INFORMATION OF
ASSESSMENT VOLUNTEERS NLT 1 DEC 14.

3.B.3. (U) DETAILED SUBMISSION REQUIREMENTS AND INFORMATION WILL BE
PUBLISHED IN A SUPPLEMENTAL MESSAGE. ALL ATRRS RANGER COURSE SEATS
FOR THIS ASSESSMENT WILL BE HELD AND MANAGED BY THE USAIS.

3.C. (U) ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:

3.C.1. (U) FEMALE VOLUNTEERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO COMPLETE THE 90-DAY
RANGER COURSE PREPARATION PROGRAM ON THE ARTB WEB SITE
(HTTP://WWW.BENNING.ARMY.MIL/INFANTRY/RTB/).

3.C.2. (U) ALL WOMEN WHO SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETE AND GRADUATE FROM THE
RANGER COURSE WILL RECEIVE A GRADUATION CERTIFICATE AND BE AWARDED,
AND AUTHORIZED TO WEAR, THE RANGER TAB. UNTIL FUTURE INTEGRATION
DECISIONS ARE MADE AND REQUIREMENTS UNDER TITLE 10 US CODE, SECTION
652 ARE SATISFIED, FEMALE GRADUATES WILL NOT RECEIVE THE ASSOCIATED
RANGER SKILL IDENTIFIERS OR BE ASSIGNED TO RANGER CODED UNITS OR
POSITIONS.

4. (U) FUNDING INFORMATION FOR ASSESSMENT PARTICIPANT ATTENDANCE AT
RTAC AND THE RANGER COURSE ASSESSMENT WILL BE PUBLISHED IN A
SUPPLEMENTAL MESSAGE.

5. (U) POINTS OF CONTACT (POCS).

5.A. (U) INITIAL REQUESTS FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WILL BE SENT TO
THE USAIS AT USARMY.BENNING.TRADOC.MBX.OCOIWEB@MAIL.MIL OR BY VOICE
MESSAGE AT (706) 545-0458; DSN 835-0458

5.B. (U) INDIVIDUAL POCS (FOR FUNDING, ORDERS, AND ATRRS) WILL BE
IDENTIFIED IN SUPPLEMENTAL MESSAGES.

6. (U) EXPIRATION DATE OF THIS MESSAGE WILL BE 365 DAYS FROM ISSUANCE
DATE.
BT
#2055
 

NavyBuyer

Marine
Verified Military
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
2,601
Location
CONUS
#18
I think this has been covered elsewhere on this forum but I didn't see it; Lt. Serrano does a great job explaining why women do not belong in the infantry (see link below). While the Ranger tab does not indicate someone as a Ranger, the school is designed in principal for those in combat arms. While the Army is not looking to place those women who pass Ranger School into RASP, by allowing women into the course at this present time, it takes away slots from those who would benefit more from going through the school. Can females pass it? Well I have never been to Ranger course but I am smart enough to know that there are very highly fit females in the world who are also great leaders, so I think the answer is yes (just like sooner rather than later, a female IOC candidate will pass IOC). With that said, what could they take away from the school that they could pass on to their peers at their home command? Where as if you send an 11B through, he is more likely to take that knowledge and not only apply it in the real world, but he can then also train and share with others to make them better soldiers. Isn't that a big reason why non-Rangers attend Ranger School?

https://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/2014/09/why-women-do-not-belong-us-infantry
 

Viper1

Special Forces
Verified SOF
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
1,986
Location
Pine trees everywhere.
#19
Continued emasculation of the american fucking male.....:rolleyes:
I respectfully disagree.

It's about damn time the Army did this. Here is why...we use the wrong definition of diversity. We think of diversity as differences in color, gender, religion, ethnic origin, when it reality it doesn't mean squat. Let's use race as an example. I can find you a black, white, latino, asian, and mixed SF guy and as x sf med says, they are the same "rifle green". Crossed Arrows worn proudly, I can guarantee they are all type-A, aggressive, savvy, smart, talented guys that want to keep swinging the bat for America. That doesn't mean they think different or act different. They could all be arrogant rapport crushers (I've met them all) I can also find you men of all five color groups previously mentioned who "grew up in poor/broken homes, went to bad schools, had bad parents, no parents, or single parents, never had any money, and overcame a metric ton of adversity to achieve their goals but someone mentored them correctly (coach, parent, teacher, etc.)" Different skin colors, but the same experience. That quoted line is the contextual background for affirmative action, minority admissions, and other such programs. Just having the color wheel represented within an organization does not denote diversity. It is the breadth of individual experiences which creates diversity.

Breadth of experience, broad experiences, DIVERSE experiences. This is what we, the military, civilian companies, other organizations should strive for.

The best boss I ever had before going into SF was a female from the Transportation Corps. She was also homosexual, at a time when it was illegal to be open. She was the best for a number of reasons, not the least of which were her competence, common sense, and focus on the mission. She was an exceptional leader for all the reasons we define leaders as exceptional (competence, integrity, aggressive, physically fit, ability to accomplish the mission, care for soldiers, etc). The point is, the fact she is female or homosexual should not matter. She was the best boss I ever had between 2005 and 2011, period.

Ranger Psych is correct. Plenty of men tried and failed at Ranger School, SFAS, the Infantry, or any number of difficult things within the military. There are certain men and women I've encountered that I never trusted in combat or training. Thankfully, they left units quickly or were marginalized to minimize negative impact on the force. There are men and women I've encountered who are exceptional Soldiers in combat and training. I've been lucky and fortunate to fight the enemy by their side. Sure, there may be only 1-2 women who could pass Ranger School or Infantry School but hell, why not? They bleed the same as us, they are as smart as us, can be as aggressive as us, etc. This is where Capt Serrano is incorrect.

The mission is gender-neutral. Combat is gender-neutral. Physical fitness is gender-neutral. The ability to carry a ruck, weapon, and your buddy under fire is gender-neutral. The word Soldier is gender-neutral! The right Soldiers will accomplish all of those tasks successfully, and then some. Uphold the one same standard we all know to be true, and our survivability on the battlefield is not negatively affected. Any boss worth his salt is going to select the best team to accomplish the mission, period. There were days I didn't take my female CST on patrol but it wasn't because they were women...it was because they were not going to help me accomplish the mission. I took both ladies in support of a commando op once and it proved most successful. The same goes for the female CA medic I worked with. Some teams didn't want a female on their firebase but a couple others, including mine, took the approach of "well, we have three SOCM trained medics now...better for us!".

The brotherhood exists whether there are women around or not, and truly exists overseas. Ask any Soldier...a man can ruin the feeling of Brotherhood just as easily. It's called "personality conflicts." Sure, the CA folks, CSTs, and other enablers knew that they weren't SF Soldiers but they never tried to act like SF soldiers. They performed as competent, aggressive, well-trained Soldiers and on that foundation we built successful teamwork. Performance matters, and mission accomplishment with the best team has primacy.

Assault and harassment occurred with women outside of the Infantry, and unfortunately will continue within it. It's a leadership issue and a character issue. Men and women of good moral compass will not participate in such acts, period. Our entire SOTF did not have a signal incident occur over the last five years. That is more common than people think or know.

Capt Serrano is right on two counts: it isn't about the individual, and the infantry isn't broken. I counter that all team members should have opportunities to serve in all capacities and just because something isn't broken doesn't mean it can't become something better. Soldier is a gender-neutral, ethnic-neutral, color-neutral term. The same goes for Airman, Marine, Sailor, and Guardsman. The mission we conduct is gender neutral, as are the known requirements to conduct that mission successfully. Meet the requirements, accomplish the mission.

Who cares about whether the Soldier in charge, getting an award, getting promoted, or getting kicked out for doing something dumb is black, white, asian, latino, mixed, male, female, gay, or straight? If the Army is serious about diversity, it will get rid of those metrics. If it is serious about diversity, it will focus on the Soldier, breadth of experience, and proper talent management throughout the ranks.

The End!
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
Administrator
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
13,183
Location
Not Afghanistan
#20
Physical fitness is gender-neutral. The ability to carry a ruck, weapon, and your buddy under fire is gender-neutral. Uphold the one same standard we all know to be true, and our survivability on the battlefield is not negatively affected.

If the Army is serious about diversity, it will get rid of those metrics.
Dai Uy,

I disagree with the first and it kind of contradicts the last, though I'm onboard with the overall message. The APFT isn't gender-neutral and a grave concern many of us have regards your last, the metrics. "If the Army is serious..." but I think many of us are jaded enough to believe it isn't serious about this. The concern is this is will start out as "one standard" but morph into two standards, one male and one female just like the APFT. Another fear-inducing option is one lowered standard for all.

I honestly think this is less of an issue of "I don't want a woman in my platoon" than it is of "I don't trust the Army to send us qualified and competent women." One or two make it through and earn a Ranger tab. Then comes the slippery slope of "Why don't more women have a Ranger tab" (or whatever argument) and then the standards erode to meet politically correct goals. The military already speaks with two tongues when it comes to one standard for all, and I see this in CSS roles, so why should we trust Big Army to hold everyone to a single standard in the Infantry?
 
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