Soldier Shot During Special Forces Training Event After Live Ammo Mixed in with Blanks

[Devildoc]

I know the team this happened to personally. There are a lot more things that are going to come out, so I would just hold your horses for a bit. Investigation is ongoing.

If it wasn't for the 18D responding to this terrible accident with minimal gear and holding the high standards of military medicine, the young man in question would be dead and not projected to return to duty.

"Holding the high standards of military medicine", sounds like he was likely mentored by me. Very likely indeed.

JK. Like most things that make the media and social media put out, most will know the a fraction of the truth.

 

[Teufel]

I always wanted to be part of a Special Operations outfit. My dad was a Green Beret and I wanted to be like him... but I wanted to forge my own path so I joined the Marines. I became an infantry officer and deployed to Iraq shortly after I completed my basic officer training. Iraq in 2004 was a fairly dynamic place. Lots of moving pieces. No lack of violence. We had a recon platoon attached to our battalion and I spent a lot of time with these Marines as we tried to meet our operational requirements. There was a young Corporal, named Caleb, who really stood out as a top performer. He really helped us out of several difficult situations. Two years later I took passed through all the selection hurdles required to become a Recon Marine and I ran into Caleb again. He was now a Recon Team Leader on a work up to return to Iraq. The Marine Corps requires units to pass a certification exercise prior to deployment. Caleb's team conducted a live fire raid and then turned in all their ammo and weapons in preparation for a force on force exercise. Caleb was sick, however, and asked his teammates to turn in his shit. They turned in his gun and most of his ammo. A week later, Caleb performed a speed reload during the force on force exercise and shot a Marine in the face through his black fire adapter. No one had unloaded the magazine in his speed reload pouch. A young man died, and another ruined his life, because we failed to adhere to basic discipline and established policy. I'm not saying that anyone cut corners here, but it's best to follow the rules when it comes to live fire exercises.

 

[AWP]

Aannnnnndddd scene.

 

[Devildoc]

@Teufel , Sir, as I said previously, when I was in we cut some corners, but never that one. Procedures, checklists, doing the same thing every time, there are reasons we do what we do. But mistakes happen, one-offs, and when they do the outcome is frequently tragic.

The two areas in which we adhered to procedure doggedly and pedantically were 1) firearms and ammunition, and 2) helicopter/air operations (when I was air crew).

 

[Gunz]

.

 

[DA SWO]

Who drew the ammo?

 

[Teufel]

Who drew the ammo?

In my scenario? The platoon sergeant I think. Then they pass the ammo out at the range. I think he and the platoon commander got fired because the platoon didn’t do proper line outs to check for ammo.

 

[DA SWO]

In my scenario? The platoon sergeant I think. Then they pass the ammo out at the range. I think he and the platoon commander got fired because the platoon didn’t do proper line outs to check for ammo.

Thanks,
My next 15-6 question is who loaded the magazines?
We, collectively, blamed the ODA. Maybe they are not guilty, and the Platoon leadership is to blame.

 

[Teufel]

Thanks,
My next 15-6 question is who loaded the magazines?
We, collectively, blamed the ODA. Maybe they are not guilty, and the Platoon leadership is to blame.

In my scenario the Marine loaded his own magazines. He loaded however many with blanks, let’s say 6, and when he put them in his rig a hot mag got mixed in, or was already on his gear.

It’s been my experience that there is usually blame to go around on these tragic events. In my opinion a soldier is responsible for anything they put in their weapon. Their leadership should put safety measures in place to mitigate risk but the individual soldier is ultimately responsible for properly lining out their gear and following safety procedures.

 

[Devildoc]

It’s been my experience that there is usually blame to go around on these tragic events. In my opinion a soldier is responsible for anything they put in their weapon. Their leadership should put safety measures in place to mitigate risk but the individual soldier is ultimately responsible for properly lining out their gear and following safety procedures.

@GOTWA and I alluded to drift, normalization of deviance, etc. Studies on the aviation industry, NASA, and the nuclear industry, looing at how catastrophic results happen with seemingly small beginnings. As a result of these studies those communities have redesigned TTPs and have seen catastrophic mistakes significantly drop, and those things have been adopted by other communities (medicine, et al.).

I teach physicians, APPs, RNs, paramedics, and SOF medics, and I tell them ultimately what YOU do to a patient is YOUR responsibility. So, same same.

 

[Teufel]

@GOTWA and I alluded to drift, normalization of deviance, etc. Studies on the aviation industry, NASA, and the nuclear industry, looing at how catastrophic results happen with seemingly small beginnings. As a result of these studies those communities have redesigned TTPs and have seen catastrophic mistakes significantly drop, and those things have been adopted by other communities (medicine, et al.).

I teach physicians, APPs, RNs, paramedics, and SOF medics, and I tell them ultimately what YOU do to a patient is YOUR responsibility. So, same same.

100%. Leaders can and should institute appropriate controls to reduce risk and ruthlessly enforce standards to ensure that high risk training is conducted as safely as possible. The safest way to train is not to train of course, so we have to balance safety against training requirements.

 

[SpongeBob*24]

I'm with @amlove21 we need to wait for more info before we cast lots here.

If we are to believe the story linked in the original post, it sounds like they were running mags in the SAW. That's a great option, just not the best for many reasons, Top 3:
1) failure to feeds - if you want to gain fire superiority this is lame where belt fed screams Mericah! Just outdated experience maybe but it doesn't seem the mags have changed that much, maybe 249 mods have....
2) visual confirmation - as you make the transition from one belt to another, it's easy to ID live vs blank and would give the gunner the best SA.
3) capacity - 30 rounds before an awkward reload doesn't justify the extra weight for the squad. (if mounted on a vehicle then bypass #3 and go to #4 which is WHY run mags?)

Anywho, This is probably a Team SOP, but I would highly doubt an Infantry unit had this ODA so pinned downed that the gunner ran out of 2 rucks full of ammo (belt fed or mag...see above), then was using the last of 84 mags (poor Junior 18E) before they called in they were being over ran. So..it should be easy to sit around in a room until someone confesses "that was my mag".

I'm with @DA SWO Quick recap on questions we should all be asking:
Who did the layout before all this started?
Who's mag was it?

 

[TLDR20]

I just think blanks are gay as fuck.

I can’t be the only one right?

Force on Force? Use Simunition. Almost impossible to fuck that up. Most of the force on force I did with foreign units we brought specialized paintball guns. It was either live ammo(on the range, in the house) or paint guns(force on force). Makes it easy to not kill someone.

Thinking back, I don’t know if I used a blank adapter in group. Our SFAUCC was either dry, sim, or live.

ETA, we even used sims in Robin Sage for any CQB type force on force. That was the last time I used blanks that I can remember.

 

[Devildoc]

I just think blanks are gay as fuck.

I can’t be the only one right?

Force on Force? Use Simunition. Almost impossible to fuck that up. Most of the force on force I did with foreign units we brought specialized paintball guns. It was either live ammo(on the range, in the house) or paint guns(force on force). Makes it easy to not kill someone.

Thinking back, I don’t know if I used a blank adapter in group. Our SFAUCC was either dry, sim, or live.

I don't disagree, simunition rocks. The only issue is the cost. And that shit hurts when you get hit.

Re: blanks, I still have a BFA floating around here somewhere....

 

[The Quartermaster]

Simunitions teach people that they ain't invincible, the truth hurts for a reason right?

 

[Topkick]

just think blanks are gay as fuck.

Should mostly be a thing of the past. There are training benefits, such as mag changes and controlling rate of fire, but blanks are outdated and there are other, better ways.

 

[TLDR20]

Should mostly be a thing of the past. There are training benefits, such as mag changes and controlling rate of fire, but blanks are outdated and there are other, better ways.

You can change mags with SIMS, and for the most part with newish tech you can train with your optics, lights, and lasers, it is very difficult to confuse sims and a live mag, and I am sure you cannot fire a 5.56 through it. I understand the idea of training your SBF positions, but that should be used for real live fire events, not FonF.

 

[AWP]

If I may, as a guy involved in training simulators.

Every December-ish Orlando hosts ITSEC.
I/ITSEC Homepage

I saw things there which kind of blew my mind. Sims for door gunners, medicine, C2, anti-tank, flight sims, etc. There was a sim that replicated the picture a gunner would see from the aft ramp of a CH-47. There was one for JTACs that used real world callsigns. As you can imagine, the small arms sims were amazing. Some of the vendors included Unreal Engine and Nvidia which are not scrub companies.

When you consider the training opportunities available such as dry fire, blanks, simunitions, and live fire, there's something to be said for modern digital sims.

The Navy is no shit using flight sims to qualify naval aviators, some of who NEVER set foot in their airframe until they reach an operational squadron within the fleet. I've seen this and I've spoken to the instructors.

If you can qualify aircrews, with their exceptionally rigid standards based upon digital learning alone, then ground forces can build a high level skillset before they squeeze a trigger with any munition. Blank, sim, live...doesn't matter.

I'm not saying this for professional or personal growth, but every branch can benefit from digital training across almost every MOS/ Rate/ AFSC.

Maybe some career fields need to start writing checks...

But, hey, I'm just a pogue who carried a tray out of the Bagram DFAC. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Kraut783]

"But, hey, I'm just a pogue who carried a tray out of the Bagram DFAC. Your mileage may vary"

Just choked on my wine with this....lol

 

[Devildoc]

If I may, as a guy involved in training simulators.

Every December-ish Orlando hosts ITSEC.
I/ITSEC Homepage

I saw things there which kind of blew my mind. Sims for door gunners, medicine, C2, anti-tank, flight sims, etc. There was a sim that replicated the picture a gunner would see from the aft ramp of a CH-47. There was one for JTACs that used real world callsigns. As you can imagine, the small arms sims were amazing. Some of the vendors included Unreal Engine and Nvidia which are not scrub companies.

When you consider the training opportunities available such as dry fire, blanks, simunitions, and live fire, there's something to be said for modern digital sims.

The Navy is no shit using flight sims to qualify naval aviators, some of who NEVER set foot in their airframe until they reach an operational squadron within the fleet. I've seen this and I've spoken to the instructors.

If you can qualify aircrews, with their exceptionally rigid standards based upon digital learning alone, then ground forces can build a high level skillset before they squeeze a trigger with any munition. Blank, sim, live...doesn't matter.

I'm not saying this for professional or personal growth, but every branch can benefit from digital training across almost every MOS/ Rate/ AFSC.

Maybe some career fields need to start writing checks...

But, hey, I'm just a pogue who carried a tray out of the Bagram DFAC. Your mileage may vary.

Regarding naval student aviation, you're correct. Ward Carroll has a YouTube video on that subject, what they are doing is just incredible.

We use simulation extensively in medicine, especially for high risk / low volume events, and honestly there's a new product on the market every month it seems that just makes it more incredible, VR goggles, etc.